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1st row - MFH Gerald Simmons, Clarksville, Va;  AMFH Wallace Dempsey, Cave Springs, Ga;  Albert Burnette, Canton, NC;  Philip Wyatt, Paris, Tn;

2nd row - Thomas L. Goodwin, Orange, Va;  Tom Brasher, Columbiana, Al;  Dr. Guy Ferrell, Silsbee, Tx;  Robert McDaniel, Center Hill, Al;  Gerald White, Beaumont, Tx;

3rd row - Talmadge Brock, Raymond, Ms;  Pete Johnson, Baskerville, Va;  Hubert Myatt, Dickson, Tn;  Roy Lindsey, Florence, Al;  Dave Ware, Bartlesville, Ok;  Bill Brown, Columbus, Ms;  Fred Lauber, Toronto, Ks;  Austin Skipwith, Clarksville, Va;  Paul Casey, Pocahontas, Tn;
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Steve Ducote



Jul 4, 08 - 6:05 PM 		Heath and Eric Need Some Help

I have been reading where lots of folks are for doing away with (Barry, Fred, Heath,) trailing in pens. Then some of the big wheels in the National would like to see Endurance scored just with S&D.
Tell me if I am understanding this correctly. So if we put together what is being said by lots of folks the ideal hunt would be in their eyes set up like this.

Hunting --- S&D---- Endurance and if endurance is determined strickly off of S&D. Then if we go with what Lenny Crowe says and click off endurance because it is directly spun and is just a (Mathematical Formula) off of S&D then we would get down to the Ideal trial where we are worried only about hunting and S&D.
Now Eric put your weights on the two classes accordingly and lets see how this would work.
Hunter



Jul 4th, 2008 - 7:08 PM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

That may work, along with this if it was not about points in hunting but about frequency of hunting marks, might be on to something. Two judges one may give 30 pts where one may give 20 for the same work. That is not picking the best hound. On the other hand if a hound was marked by 3or4 judges for hunting that would carry weight in anyones book.
Andy Bedgood---Spring Hill Kennels



Jul 4th, 2008 - 8:07 PM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

I've also got a question and would like to see the replies. If you could go to a hunt, any hunt, and have the cash in your pocket to buy any hound there. There is a CH. that was made at this particular hunt with 30 hunt and 350 S&D. There is also a hound that won the S&D with 1400 points and maybe placed 9th or 10th. The question is, which hound would you be carrying home? I know which one would have my collar on him.

After reading several of the posts, maybe we SHOULD have an option to the way hunts are scored. One being scored on S&D, H and END. the other option being scored on H,T, and END. Maybe this would suit everyone as nothing else brought up on here has. Go to the hunts you want and enjoy yourself no matter what rules are being used. Most do this as a hobby and for enjoyment, when it gets to where you don't enjoy it any more, it might just be time to look for another type of hobby.
Eric Emerson



Jul 4th, 2008 - 8:32 PM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

Steve, Just a quick possibility. May be close to the mark, may not -- 1 judge can score in hunting:
10 PTS. -- FIRST HR.
20 PTS. -- SECOND HR.
30 PTS -- THIRD HOUR
40 PTS. -- FOURTH HOUR
50 PTS. -- FIFTH HOUR
-------
150 PTS. -- ALLOW 3X FOR AN HOURLY TOTAL FROM ALL JUDGES. NO JUDGE CAN SCORE A HOUND FOR HUNTING MORE THAN ONCE PER HR.
INCLUDE CHECK WORK, TRACK RUNNING, TRAILING IN THIS CATEGORY -- CALL IT HUNTING OR WHATEVER.
A HOUND COULD SCORE 450 PTS. PER DAY. OF COURSE THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE PRACTICALLY NO RUNNING AND HOUND WOULD HAVE TO BE SCORED 15 TIMES IN HUNTING BY AT LEAST FIVE JUDGES.
THEN SCORE WHAT YOU SEE AND TOTAL POINTS DETERMINES PLACINGS. SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
David & Lindsay Horton/Bad Fast Kennels



Jul 4th, 2008 - 11:33 PM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

Andy in the hunt you speak of i will take the speed and drive winner. But how about a hunt where the sd winner has 20 hunt 285 sd, but the hunt winner has 125 hunt and 215 sd. Which one you want now only 70 points seperates there S&D.My point being not always should the speed and drive winner be the hunt winner.
Andy Bedgood---Spring Hill Kennels



Jul 5th, 2008 - 7:11 AM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

David, I would agree with you, but in the hunts with such big differences in the scores, I just hate to see a "pack shy" hound win over one that has gotten out there and really hustled for 3 days. Not saying that this is the best overall hound at the hunt, but it is probably the one I personally would be intrested in. You know that now days, there are not that many hunts that show the scores that rounded out. Wish there where more, but with the pens that are really stocked and the running so intense, the difference in scores are usually pretty big between the placings.
David & Lindsay Horton/Bad Fast Kennels



Jul 5th, 2008 - 10:50 AM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

Andy I understand what you are saying. But I bet you that in these pens with all this game a pack shy hound can really add up on S&D with so many yotes. It is easy for them to find one or two other hounds they can handle and light up the score board. While a really fast hound is running with 25 or 30 others that are all fighting for the front. I have seen it happen, and that's what will be your winner at the end with GTP. So it will happen under either set of rules is my point changing them want fix nothing intil we start getting rid of these pack shy hounds at field trials.

PS I am off to vacation talk to you later this week when I get back.
Heath Howell



Jul 7th, 2008 - 10:15 PM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

Steve, I have been on your side of the river the last few days and couldn't get to a computer. I couldn't sleep one night and came up with a few modifications that I would like to run under. I bet you would like them too. I'll post them later, but you are on the right track. Do away with the HGA points for Trailing, add Track Running and can Endurance. I also added a new scratch and took a page out of the Southeastern Night Trial rules.
Heath Howell



Jul 8th, 2008 - 1:30 AM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

HGA Points
S&D
100 to 55
Hunting & Trailing
100 to 55
Track Running
50-5
Endurance (10-20-30)
50-5

Bottom fill the classes.

1st place/Champion shall be the hound with the highest HGA points from the top "X" Speed and Drive.

The "X" depends on the size of the hunt.
X=
3 if less than 50 hounds entered
4 if 50-74
5 if 75-99
6 if 100-124
7 if 125-149
8 if 150-174
9 if 175-199
10 if 200+

So, if you have 80 hounds, the winner must be in the top 5 Speed and Drive. If you have 160 hounds the winner must be in the top 8 Speed and Drive.

2nd thru 10th would be ranked by HGA points as normal. Grand Total breaks ties.

Finally, institute a new scratch called "Ambushing". This would be used to eliminate hounds that wait in the roads for the game to pop out or otherwise occupy themselves with trying to kill the game instead of trying to run it. This wouldn't be Cunning Running or anything to do with cutting. Cutting is still OK, the hound just has to cut to the race, not to the crossing where he waits for the race to come to him.

Steve, would you run under this set of rules?
Steve Ducote



Jul 8th, 2008 - 6:44 AM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

Heath this took alot of thought it looks good would like to look at it a little longer. Are you combining H&T into one class. Thanks
Heath Howell



Jul 8th, 2008 - 12:29 PM 		Re: Heath and Eric Need Some Help

Steve, I figured we could still score Trailing in the field and just add it to the Hunting scores and rank them in one HGA class. In this way Trailing is really just a bonus in the Hunting class. Trailing is proof that the Hunting hound was right and knew what he was doing so I think we can let it stay in the rules, just not with any stand alone HGA points.

I think the HGA weight is pretty balanced in this format. It has a slight bias toward the Running hounds which is right for pen running. The Running hound has the Speed and Drive class plus the Endurance plus the Track Running. The scent hound has the Hunting & Trailing class and also has a shot in the Track Running class if his natural ability to use his nose for running is equal to his ability to pick up the "style" points for just looking for something to run. The Endurance class also still has the ability to swing both ways depending on how the hunt plays out. So, if you have a good running hunt you have 200 HGA points for the Running hound and 100 for the scent hound. If the running is low you have 200 HGA points for the scent hounds and 100 for the running hounds. It almost never happens that the Hunting scores put a hound in the Endurace class but it does happen so I mention it. Also, you have the added safety net of bottom filling the classes which reduces the HGA points for the scent hounds in hunts where their abilities are less important.
Finally, you have a guarantee that the Champion will be in the top percentage of Speed and Drive hounds. I think using a chart where you can keep the percentage roughly the same is better than using a flat number. Instead of a hound being in the top 10 Speed and Drive I think he ought to be in the top 10 percent or something like that. Maybe the "X" factor needs to be adjusted a little up or down. I was mainly just trying to get the idea across with the table I listed above.


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