There has been some good discussion just looking for a little more.

300 dogs in a field trial. Lots of them broke to the tone button. There are 10 dogs in the 300 that have never been toned or lets say not broke to the tone.
Then there is a great deal of them when they here a tone, no matter what dog its own they are heading to the gate, or they stop running, or whatever. How is this not interfering with some ones dog.
Over a three day period how much could they alter a field trial.
How much damage could someone do at a bay by toning his dog, it might not make his dog come out, but someone else's might, how is that not tampering.

Its not all about being crooked, its a lot about being careless, and if everyone at the hunt is walking around with them, more chance for carelessness.
I see kids walking around with them at hunts, hell you know they are not crooked, careless, a good chance, but this can greatly alter a field trial.

I have a tremendous amount of confidence in the Board of directors of the Masters they gave this a lot of thought.
Show us how this is not interfering. Please don't say it doesn't go on, we have documentation.

Hope for a good discussion

There is no possible way you can dispute that is not interfering. Folks made it years without tracking collars then years more with just beeps. Could you not just ban the collars with shock/tone ability? GPS only collars? Seems like that would end this whole discussion. I don't have and alpha but will the GPS only collars not work with them?

Of course tones go off during hunts. We all know this. The enforcement and hunters being involved in the exposure is the odd and hard part to figure. I have no problem whatsoever turning off during running. I will leave my alphas at home to avoid conflict.

So field trial'r.... You've done nothing wrong. You Know you've done nothing wrong, and you'll leave a very productive tool used in your hunting/field trial at home.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.


From the Masters rulebook:

Proper Conduct Section

Item 2. Should any member misconduct themselves in any manner in connection with the Masters Foxhunters field trial or bench show, said member shall not be allowed to compete in any trials that may be held under the auspices of this Corporation, nor shall they become a member in good standing, unless a written apology is made to the Board of Directors who has the discretionary power to reinstate the member.

Item 3. Any member of the Masters foxhunters association who approaches a judge or judges and recommends certain hounds be scored or eliminated, shall be considered in breach of proper conduct and said member shall be fined or suspended at the discretion of the Board of Directors. Fines are not to be less that $25.00 or more than $100.00.

Item 5. Should any owner or his handler harm or purposely interfere with an opponenet's hound, he will be expelled from the Association and all his entries barred.

Seems like it's pretty much covered all ready.

Yes I will leave the alphas at home.I very much disagree with the no view of screen rule and am on the side of the fast innocent being trampled by the small group causing all this.But the new rule is what it is. If hunters are complaing and turning each other in before this rule now it could become a tool to get a high scored hound out of a hunt. And I will avoid that by leaving alphas home.

From the current Masters rule book...

PROPER CONDUCT
1. The Board of Directors may refuse any entry they deem proper to exclude.

2. Should any member misconduct themselves in any manner in connection with
the Master’s Foxhunters field trial or bench show, said member shall not be allowed to compete in any trials that may be held under the auspices of this Corporation, nor shall they become a member in good standing, unless a written apology is made to the Board of Directors who has the discretionary power to reinstate the member.
...
...
...
5. Should any owner or his handler harm or purposely interfere with an opponent’s hound, he will be expelled from the Association and all his entries barred.


I think the framework is already in place to deal with the issue. Just enforce the proper conduct section and be done with it.
Look closely at #5 though. It says "purposely interfere" not accidentally, unintentionally, or carelessly. So the kids who bump the button by accident are no different than the ones who honk the truck horn before call off or play with loud electronic toys or whistles or holler and scream and carry on like kids do.


I have seen at the Masters field trial itself cases where judges or rescue squads have broken up a bay with so much force that it bothered the hounds involved for some time after. How is that not affecting the outcome of the hunt? If your hound gets beat back with a pine limb or a dog leash and comes to the gate looking for his master, what do you do then? Give him some time to go back hunting. If he does go back hunting he still lost scoring opportunities while at the gate. If he never goes back then he will likely get scratched.


There is also a rule...
"A gun-shy hound shall not be penalized for being cowed by gun fire."

Shouldn't this apply to all instances of being cowed by outside factors like whistles and horns and tones and hollering judges? I know several MOH's who won't allow a hound to be scratched for being cowed by thunder.

Hank, find a doctor quick and get your head examined. You starting to think like me and even beat me to the punch on that one.

Gun shot or tone if the judge doesn't hear it because four wheeler is running, hounds in full cry whatever I'd you can eliminate a problem do it. Just ban the shock/tone collars and be done with it. This is laziness on the ones part who won't leave them at home. Shock tone and voice, train the dang dog at home not at a field trial. They are called training collars or atleast they used to be. Y'all find the dangdest things to squabble over. It's obvious a simple mistake could alter the outcome of a field trial big time. I wouldn't think you are affecting but a small percentage by banning them.

More power to ya field trial'r....that's your call.

Heath - I hear ya....I left rule #3 up there on purpose....very pertinent , very recently.

Chip - everyone got their opinion.

Hank they sure do. Mines not worth much but heck it's free!! Btw I've switched to miller lite now just incase you wanna buy a beer next time you see me. If only I had as many good dogs as I have opinions, I'd be the man wouldn't I !

Wise old saying:

Heath and Hank Ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure

DD - You not gonna take my guns away are ya ? Just in case they up and shoot someone on their own ? accidentally or carelessly


I hear ya wolfpack. Miller lite bro ? Really ?
Heck I drink those Red Apples like water.

You saying I'm fat and lazy ???? Well.... that's got more to do with eating too much...not leaving my alpha home.

They don't make you walk from the gate to the back of the foxpen you're judging right ? They let you use a horse, or 4wheeler, or truck. Just another tool buddy. Same as a gun.... some use them correctly...some don't.

Hank Cranford makes a GREAT POINT!

This issue is ALREADY COVERED under the MASTERS RULES!

What is NOT BEING DONE is ENFORCEMENT!! Why? Because of friendships, field trial buddy's, etc, etc!! By gosh, if you ENFORCE the dang rules, PROBLEM ELIMINATED!! But might make someone's buddy unhappy or affect a friendship!
The truth is, if they CANNOT or CHOSE NOT to follow the dang rules.....
BAN THEM!!!!!

Why should someone that has spent thousands of dollars acquiring an Alpha system, suddenly NOT be able to use it, because there are a few "screw-ups", whether it be on purpose or not!! Adult or child, wrong is wrong!!

Personally, I do not need to shock or tone most of my hounds, they will come when I call them! Sometimes they can be a bit hard-headed, but even as an ol' man, I'll get my butt in the woods and catch em!

My opinion (may not be worth much) but, I think the Master's is getting ready to cause themselves a bigger problem by losing hunters & hounds at their hunts! I thought we were trying to GROW the sport, not eliminate the competition??

Yes, it is up to the Board of Directors & Officers of the Masters to make the rules, but this is one I don't necessarily agree with!

Bottom line....ENFORCE THE CURRENT RULES....BAN THE LAWBREAKERS....& the SPORT will be BETTER for it, & the MASTER's can hold their heads high for enforcing the rules & making the hunts more fair for everyone as a result!!

Consider Hank's post, &utilize what you have, not make more dang rules...Master's is becoming like ObamaCare!!

Allan Bishop
(Jabber Jaw)

Bottom line is it's a training tool. Train them before you go to a field trial. If it's GPS only that's one thing less that could happen. Hank if guns had an IQ test hooked to them before they would shoot the world would be a better place. And as for the thousands of dollars for the alpha. The dollar signs have no place in this conversation. This is a question of could they adversely affect the outcome of a field trial not whether a man had to finance a set of souped up
Tracking collars and can't play with them.

They Are trained ahead of time....that's what is the rub. The trained ones know to stop baying, or come to the truck when they're toned,or whistled, or yelled at or horn honked at or whatever. The problem is someone toning, or honking, or shooting during the hunt.

and yep on the IQ part...and a lot of other things.

they not saying you cant use them, just cant use them during a hunt. why else would you want to beside to tone off a bay. they simply saying use them for what they intended for and that's to catch up. some have taken it a step further and are toning to make hounds quit. this is altering the running. it is altering the running guys. I understand some have spent good money to purchase this item but it has added an element that was never intended by our forefathers. read again the rules they implemented and ask yourself how serious they were in the early 1900's to protect the integrity of hunts. these alpha's would have never made it to the discussion table boys. they would be banned and that's truly what they should be, BANNED !! no exceptions..if you want to train with them I recommend it. but in prestigious hunts, 1 days or pup hunts they should not be allowed. if someone don't stand up for the integrity of field trialing sooner than later this sport will die.

Well if they are trained to come when called why are people using them. Will the GPS only collars not work with the Alpha system? That's an honest question I don't know the answer.

Chip, I agree, it is a training tool!! And agree that if used IMPROPERLY, they can affect the outcome of a hunt!! I DO NOT, WILL NOT, & NEVER HAVE , & NEVER WILL DO ANYTHING to affect the integrity of a hunt!!

As for the comment about "souped up collars"! Don't know about that, but do know those are the ONLY collars I have...be that good or bad...has yet to be determined...and it was a substantial investment for me!!

If the Master's & Nationals would enforce the rules they currently have in place...there would be no need to add rules...rule breakers, cheaters, whatever you want to call them would be banned, & the sport would be the better for it! Why? Because hunters would know they were going to hunts where that type of action would not be tolerated!! A win, win for everyone!!!
Well maybe except for the cheater, & they would get what they deserve!!

Allan Bishop
(Jabber Jaw)

No Chip...the Astro and Alphas are totally separate systems. The alphas have more features...including the tone and shock.

If you've never used them and get back in, you'll never want anything else.

I could be at the back fence in Pauls past the old fire barrel and tell you if a dog was at the lower kennel gate, or upper kennel gate....not just that he was bouncing between 6 and 8 when the tracking box is on high. No waving a wand in a general direction. Look at the screen and see exactly where 10 dogs are.

You catching up dogs after dark...you see him fixing to hit the yellow line...you can turn on strobe lights flashing on the collar to warn cars...lol.

Haven't tried it yet, but they say you can set up a perimeter to keep them out of a still hunting area for instance...tones then when they get close...and will shock them at the line.

Things have come a long way..... I can remember leaving a ducksback shirt out where you turned loose for a dog to come back to if you coulndn't get them out at night or couldn't get to them.

Allan, help me with this. You and I sitting in some chairs at a field trial looking at garmins. You have hound no. 100 you tone him, hound number 200 is standing next to him, he lets out a yelp, hound # 200, he was never shocked though or toned, but he knows whats coming he reacts in a scared way jumps into a judges buggy goes crazy. Judge comes back and says, dog 200, who owns him that dog was interfered with, who owns him. The poor hunter with the 200# gets his dog scratched, and he gets kicked out, for absolutely doing nothing.
I am all for catching the bad guys, you said you thought the Masters would lose hunters because of this, I dang sure don't want to punish the wrong guy, so please give me a hint how the Nat'l has figured out to catch the right ones.
I am definitely not too proud to learn something new. I just don't see how you can catch the right guy, and the dishonest ones surely know this, so you are playing right into their hands. I just think you have to make an honest attempt to make it fair

Hank, you really caught my attention with your last post. You are saying you could set up a perimeter. I have a deal at my house that sets a perimeter for my yard dogs, bought it at pet smart, when they go close to the perimeter it tones them, if they go further it shocks them.
Is this how this garmen you talking about works.
If so, could you go to the National next yr and set a perimeter where your dogs would never leave the area.
Hank I don't have one so I know I have no knowledge about them, but you really caught my attention. On the outside at a hunt you could keep your hound from getting out of pocket wow

I have the alpha and dc 30 collars from when they first came out. So it's either the shock collars or nothing at all? The new collars like the dc 50 I think is newest don't work? I just see this a a big time screw up waiting to happen. The only things I can think off that could cause a bigger problem would be someone riding in the pen and pouring bags of dog food down the road or going in the pen riding around shooting a gun. Neither could be his or would be allowed to happen. But as stated someone could ride down the road and make a real mess thrying to be funny. I don't see why it's such a bad idea when the potential for a major problem is there and obviously has happened or we wouldn't be talkin about it.

Chip, the first one that came out was called Astro and they have not made the collars that work on both Astro and Alpha systems yet. I feel like they might in the future but right now you can't get a collar to for Alpha system that doesn't have training features.

Steve, starting from same situation with you an Allan on the porch and the new rule is in effect. You and Allan have your Alpha turned off. Judge hears a tone and blames your dog or Allan's dog either one. You're both honest and following the rules. You don't know where your dogs are or what they are doing. Matter of fact they could have jumped the fence or pushed through a culvert screen for all you know but that's beside the point. At the time of the incident where tone was heard by judge and dogs reacted to the tone there are 3 hunters with Alphas unaccounted for. One is at the store 2 miles away. One is in his truck with tinted windows taking a nap (or so he says). One is down the fence line watching crossings. You and Allan are upset and go to each one but each unit is turned off when you ask to see them. Never mind you don't have the authority to demand to see any other hunters receiver. There is no rule allowing that but that's beside the point too. Problem is which one of the 3 is the guilty party? Maybe none of the 3. You won't be able to prove it one way or the other. What effect did the rule have? Did it fix the problem or did it limit the rights of honest hunters for no gain at all?

I believe the National rules already made a no shock rule.Yes it is near impossible to enforce. But I dont believe two hunters can get together and start an investigation on a hound. Just dont use garmin products in a pen hunt.I own garmins.I love garmins.But I cant change an unchangeable point of view.I do think the rule will cost a few dog entries but I may be wrong.

That's the way I read it Ducote...you can set up a perimeter alert. It may be for you or the dog, but I thought a friend who's had theirs longer than me said he had it set up that way in the deer woods.

You can also run the the old gps system ...add a shocking collar....when you see him get close to out of pocket, zap him. I know the national raised sand a few years back about using shocking collars during the hunt - don't remember the outcome.

Same for in the pen....zap em when they come back to cast. If you're on game patrol and see your dog at a bay...go bust that one up - if yours aren't at a bay - take your sweet time....you hear guys fussing about all sorts of stuff.

Chip , about dumping dog food....we've all heard the horror stories about the top dog blowed up like a pig because some p.o.s. dumped a bucket of feed in their pen the night before.

They talked about drug testing....till they said what if someone gives my dog something...lol.

Guys have been caught swapping dogs....caught calling judges...judges caught...biggest name in the sport with his dog tied out the last day in the woods...guys back dating puppies....there are bad apples in every competition, not just foxhunting...it's just a fact.

H.C. , that is well said. So we need enjoy ourselves. I cant stop cheating.I have come to terms with it the older I have gotten.

LOL....you should be on a few committees that get to hear all/most of the complaints.

Makes you want to go back to bass fishing sometimes.

I don't know if Garmin will make one with automatic shock at a perimeter. Hopefully they believe that is something a human ought to be involved in. Deciding when to shock and when not to. Right now you can set the perimeter to alert you if the dog gets near boundary. Then you can tone or shock to stop him. I always look at the screen to make sure they don't go where they aren't supposed to be if it can be helped. Something I discovered running Sir Bill in the National Forest is you can turn one around with the tone. We had busted up a race earlier in the night and picked up what dogs we could. Had to leave Bill because he was across water and I couldn't make him cross it to come to the truck. Drove off and left him to go to another pack. We get about 5 miles away and he comes out to a road looking for the truck. I noticed he was about to hit a highway so I took a shot and toned him to see what he would do. He turned 180 degrees and went back down the road into the block he was supposed to be in. He went back to where he last heard me calling. Folks that hunt outside a lot have their pack trained to come back toward cast when they hear the tone. That helps in a field trial and puts others at a disadvantage but if you could have a hunt outside and keep every hound in pocket for the whole hunt that would be better than a hunt inside a pen. That is the direction we should be going.

Heath I meant astro. It's a 220 the old one. So much talk of alpha it's on my brain. They are cool for sure but maybe a little to cool for field trials held in a pen right now. My opinion I'm done. Back to fishing like someone said above.

Heath, you know I could sit hear and debate with you and Hank all day and we would all enjoy it, but, come on you are 10 times smarter than I, but even I can figure out what an advantage this could be to people that hunt on the hunting grounds and feed the game in that area.
They could keep their dogs in the main area all day. is that tampering, to the point of greatly increasing your chances of placing. Poor old out of state hunter is looking for his hounds all over tim buck to.

On the other hand, I see how you could stay out of trouble with land owners.

Fishing sounds like a good idea. I hope to go this week myself.

I was going to suggest that everyone with an Alpha turn them in to MOH at cast. Hang them all up in one of those mesh shoe organizers on a wall near the judges room. Then you could leave them on so they could collect data throughout the hunt. That is what I thought would be suggested and I don't have a problem with it.
But I realize now that each collar can be tracked and trained by several different receivers. We have used as many as 4 receivers to track dogs while deer hunting. Everybody gets to see everyone else's dogs on screen. So, even if the MOH collects an Alpha receiver from each hunter that won't stop someone from going down the road and turning on their backup receiver.

The only way to fix this problem is to ban all training devices entirely from the hunt which would ban the Alphas. I don't agree with that fix but it is the only solution.

Steve, you thinking too much inside the boat about playing fair poker. I want to get you thinking about saving the boat first.

Imagine the National or USO or even Breeders Cup at Buckville. You pull up and the hunt president has a big map with the "in bounds" and "out of bounds" drawn off. A 15,000 acre or 20,000 acre block where the hunt will be judged is clearly defined. You get a copy to carry with you in the field. Instructions state that no hound may be bothered as long as he is in bounds. Any hound outside the boundary should be picked up using every tool available and recast in the middle of the block. Folks that don't have the tools they need will get them as soon as they can afford them. It would take time and some will not change their ways but wouldn't you pick a better national CH if all 500 hounds are in the pocket most of the day? The best foxhound in the country might spend 2 days in the buckhole being pulled to the sound of a deer race. If we would all use technology to keep them in the main area we could really compare them against each other. Plus nobody calls the game warden to complain about trespassing.

One man got a speeding ticket so we're wanting to ban the use of vehicles??? Seriously? Just follow the rule and turn the dang thing off. Simple as that. Enforce the rule, don't punish the honest folks.

Some high rolling crybaby must have had their dog get scratched. If not all this b. s wouldn't be on here to start with

I like to run 100' weedeater cords on mine. Bought stock in the weedeater manufacturer and spent 10's of thousands of my own dollars on them cords.I want it instituted back in where I can run my weed eater cords. Aint my fault your dog got hung up in them. I also always used to run orange numbers. Won several field trials with them on my hounds, so that crap about couldn't see them didn't fly. I got several hundred dollars worth of orange paint left over. Reinstate so I can use my orange paint.Sounds awful selfish to me.
Ban the shock collars from being on the dogs. They are a problem.
I have an Astro 320 with Tritronics shockers. Easily removed. Sorry you boys bought something that is causing a problem but they need to be banned just like the many other things in field trialing have been banned.
How many people are gonna quit attending trials because they know they are being manipulated by these devices.
You want to see them used, come on up to our pen on any given day,always in use but shock devices come off when we go to a trial.

Steve, I never implied the Nationals had it figured out! Wasn't my comment.
But the Nationals does have a rule that allows the judge or judges to remove a hound from the trial, if they feel there is evidence, i.e., the hounds actions. And to disqualify the hunter! Were they to remove all that responded to a shock or tone, the problem may eventually be eliminated.
I'm not saying it is the best rule, but it is what the Nationals have done.

I guess I am to trusting, but did not know that this problem had become so prevalent! It is a sad day when these guys will stoop to an all time low to try & tone another hunters hound to get them eliminated! I guess it is a "win at all cost" situation now! And for that they should be ashamed! But as the old adage goes, "there is no honor among thieves", and I guess this is where we've come to!

Even if a hunter turns in his Garmin, & the MOH's or someone has possession.....there is nothing to keep a hunter from having a "back-up", and using it!! If one will stoop to the point of "toning" another mans hound, then he will not stop cheating by just turning in his Garmin!!

So, you tell me, how is this rule going to stop it from happening??

On the other hand; if the judges just scratched them all, then there would be a lot fewer hounds to look at; & if enough of em got scratched for it a few times, then the crap might stop! But, no that's not the answer either, because the "cheater" will cheat anyway! They will find another way to help further ruin "field trials" for the MAJORITY of honest hunters!!

But I'm here to tell you, when HSUS & the rest of the "ANTI'S" ride into town...a cheater will be the last of your problems....& if they have their way...you won't have to worry about a "tone", a "shock", nor a "beep"...because they will take it away from you!! Don't think it can't happen...look at Florida....& we had to make "compromise legislation" in Virginia to keep them for the next 40 years!! It can & at some point may happen! So to everyone that is "field trialing"...ENJOY it for as long as you can, & hopefully the dang cheaters will wakeup & realize the harm they are doing to the sport!

Allan Bishop
(Jabber Jaw)

PS: Guess I don't know the answer, and imagine I'll be going to fewer trials as a result! Good Luck to everyone!

This is good stuff, it was ok for over 20yrs for 10 hunt to beat 1000 sd, and the show went on, people go to hunts with no running in 3 days yet again the show continues to go on, masters this year was huge, uso huge, next year all American will be huge..... it is good for every one to respect opinions even if it differs from what u think, I am glad that these issues being looked at and there is some thst are trying to keep hunts on up and up. ..... I'm burning up to go trialing, what ever the dam rules r I'm going. ... hunted all day today, wall wall running, say 35 crossings headed to hunt next week to have ball and compete. .......its all good
Lenny

Like a few of us this has been on my mind all day.I have tried to image how would you defend the accusation by two fellow trialers ,who both swore they saw wrong, that you were innocent?I said this morning and agin for me the only way is not bring garmins to the trial. A high scoring hound could very well be accused of this .And not having the alphas on the dog is the only safe solution. And also not the end of the world.

Is this the only sport on the planet where the referees/judges are provided secrecy (and work for free by the way) to do their job?
This post and others about phones are so stupid that I wish I wanted to waste more time typing my comment.
We must be the most ignorant people on the planet. No wonder the government takes us as such fools. Read the posts. It is as obvious as the getting wet when you bathe properly.
Oh, if you get offended or mad about my post remember this, all this crap went worldwide just like mine!!!!!
Technology is not killing this sport. As usual, it is the inability of the user that is the problem.