Notice so many crossbreeds being registered in the Hunters Horn, is it for extra speed and endurance or what? What will this trend do to the different breeds in the future?

Gentlemen Mr Smith asked what would happen with all the crossbreeds that are filling up the registrations. My question is who will know what those dogs will be after 5 generations, Julys, or Walkers or do you just call them what you desire. With the way the Horn registers anything and everything we will not have a distinct breed of anything in our near future it will probley be just American Foxhound. I praise and honor the old time breeders who wouldn't think of making crosses like I see today, I believe they would just kill all the dogs they have to prevent someone from destroying the breed. I think I will see if they will register my Black Angus and Herford cross just might work. I think all should breed what they want but I hope a few will help keep all the breeds pure, it gets harder every day to keep them pure. As I look at pedigrees the 15/64 or 1% outcross goes in the garbage. To apease all maybe a new breed should be established for the crossbreeds. I will get humble and say it might add more vigor and I will still compliment the dog for his ability to perform as a champion.

If my july/walker cross breed dogs run better then your so called "pure breds" how can making these crosses hurt these hounds in future generations? Sure you won't have the novelty of the "pure bred" classification, but for me I want the best hounds possible and if I can get that done with a cross breed then so be it. I'd much rather do that, than cross an average dog to an average gyp for average pups just to say i've kept the same pure lineage going strong.

I know theres very good full julys, and very good full walkers but if crossings the 2 gives you a hound with the traits you desire than so be it. What will hurt the hounds in the future is breeding to sorry hounds with faults that will be projected into future generations.

Just my 2 cents

From what I'm seeing now the july has changrEd the most. In the early 50s there was a man in sallis ms that had July hounds that he hunted fox the same way we deer hunted.and he killed the fox. Had the side of his barn covered in fox hides. The best I remember all his dogs were orange spotted with flag tails and a little longer hair on the back side of front and back legs. Somebody mixed up something somewhere cause I'm seeing every color and hair length that's possible. I really don't know what you could do by crossing these dogs with anything because he had proof that his dogs could run fox hanging on the barn wall.

That's why I stick with walkers. Now like the above post said there are some real good July's that really are full July. However I'm seeing more and more "camo" July's that I believe to be nothing more than a foxhound cur or plot cross. If I wanted Curs I'd buy Curs. I want foxhounds so I'll buy 100% walkers. Am I saying all walkers are 100% pure? No, but it's a lot closer than a camo dog that runs 3 hrs and quits. And if the day comes I decide to make a cross on say a treeing Walker or Black and Tan something like that. I'm not gonna register it. Why would somebody say they have a pure hound if they know it's not?? That's stupid. If it's 50-50 just tell it how it is.

The hunter's horn is the problem. A crossed up dog is not a regerstered dog in my opinion, but that's just my opinion. That's why I wouldn't own a dog that wasn't chase regerstered.With the truth be known chase regerstered dog's are not full blooded walkers ether. That's why you have walker dog's all colors now. It's probably a loss cause an has been for year's

I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE CALLING CAMO IS IT BRINDLE, BLUE OR RED LEOPARD IF IT IS I HAVE HAD JULYS FOR OVER 40 YEARS AND THAT IS SOME OF THE COLOR THEY COME IN AND ALWAYS HAVE THEY CAN COME IN ANY COLOR YOU CAN IMAGINE.....WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHERE THE GRAY DARK BACKED AND RED DARK BACKED WITH FLAG TAIL WALKERS CAME FROM????

Hillbilly, that would be a july in the wood pile..and I understand what mr mcroan is saying also..if you bred a full walker to a full july and get halves, and continue to breed the gyps to full julys for 5 generations you wouldn't ever know on paper there once was a full walker in there..do you have a full july ? i can relate to keeping the blood pure, and why one would take pride in doing so.. But theres not many left.. Bob Hurley told me years ago he quit registering dogs cause nothing on the paper was truly right anyway..He said if you want to sell dogs you need the paper, if you want to run dogs and own a hound that runs like you want, then the pedigree is right.. No respect for the paper.. And he was right, Ive raised dogs for years and sold em later on only to see em turn into something else while at a hunt.. The game changed when the 3 hour hunt was introduced, and became popular.. walker owners needed more speed, and the july provided that.. its still that way today.. both breeds have complimented each other in my opinion, depending on your style of hunting..Big Thunder would have just been another july and forgotten without crossing him on walker gyps.. Most of the top walker breeders that speed hunt maintain july in their blood to provide a better running frame and speed.. I say run what you like, but without the pure breeders you could never get back to what you had and start over..

No walker dog I've ever owned needed speed from any July I've ever seen.

haha. never seen shane in any results lately

I've won 3 days, one days, and many puppy hunts and never been beat by a July. Sure as hell haven't seen Dave in any results.

Oh yeah, I've also won a couple bar room fight if you like to get into that to Mr Dave.

Talk around town back in that day was that Ernie registered what he wanted,anyway he wanted.So now you know the rest of the story....Dont blame the horn or the chase.They just take the money for a service.

YOU CANT BLAME THE HORN OR CHASE THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE PAPER WORK IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE MAN THAT RECORDS IT......

Competition hunting has changed the looks and style of all hunting dogs . Someone can always figure out a way to breed dogs and come up with something that can fit the rules and win more than the original dog type. It's happened in coon dogs, squirrell dos, fox dogs. I not sure about bird dogs. I know I couldn't follow one on foot and kill wild birds. The beagle has remained fairly constant, but I hear of an originazition called fox beagles that will probably change things.

The cross bred breeder was one who looked for a quick fix or a miracle. And is probably still looking.

THE FOLLOWING COMMENTS ARE ABOUT CROSSBREEDING AND BREEDING IN GENERAL . IT SEEMS THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE MORE INTERESTED IN BREEDING TO POPULAR BREEDS INSTEAD OF CROSSBREEDING OR BREEDING TO A LESSER KNOWN STUD DOG THAT WOULD PROBABLY PRODUCE BETTER DOGS WHETHER THEY ARE WALKER OR JULY.DO THEY WANT A DOG THAT HAS POPULAR BREEDING OR PERFORMS BETTER IN THE FIELD.THAT IS A QUESTION EACH HUNTER OR BREEDER NEEDS TO ASK THEMSELVES . AS FOR ME I WOULD WANT THE BETTER DOG WHETHER THE DOG IS WALKER OR JULY OR CROSS BRED .THANKS.

I agree 100% Mr. Ronnie. I have owned some outstanding Walker dogs and some very good July dogs. I have also owned some really good cross bred dogs. I am a one day hunter, but have on occasion made other hunts. I raise my own dogs and take a lot of pride and enjoyment in raising them, I look at a dogs ability, disposition, and breeding. In that order, most people go by what's on the papers, I know how mine are bred. Most can't say that, and a lot don't really care. Each to his own, if he or she satisfies you, that's all that should matter. Good Hunting.

BTT.

I'd be more concerned with the "registered"dogs that look like they have Whippet or Grey Hound in them, than July. The July/Walker cross is traceable, a pencil whipped pedigree with a sighthound is NOT. Just my .02 worth

Shane if you never been outrun with a July you must cast in your living room ! Lol

Shane's only victory in a bar fight was at "The Do Drop In"

Gentlemen now that we all have had the time to think about the crossbreeding I would like to add one thing if you didn't have us pure bred breeders it would all just be a bunch of whatever dogs running, wonder what you would call them, screw ups would be a good name. Now speaking of names for the screw ups would you be in favor of starting a new name for the mixed up breeding where we could tell immediately that we would want no part of them in our breeding program. It has already got to where I can count on one hand the number of breeders of July hounds so it won't be long until we die off and it will go away. I get much more enjoyment in winning with a pure bred dog that can carry on the bloodlines, I generalize here talking about Julys because they are what I have had for 50 years. I am just as adamant about us losing the Walker breed the hunters that run Walkers should be just as proud of them, I run with a lot of Walkers and we enjoy what we have and no I don't blow them away with mine but I sure do like to try, that's just good competition and comrade just like southern Julys versa the western Julys. Sometimes we all luck up and get a dog that stands out, Lets move those dogs to the front and show them off. One more statement if it's 7/8 mixed up then it isn't a July, have you ever thought that could be greyhound or bird dog mixed in. Think about a new Breed for the crossbred dogs and I agree they might be as good as any but are you contributing anything but a lot of hot air to a breeding program to better the breed. Guess I am set in my thinking as I have a fine female bred and she is due in about 20 days, sorry she is just a southern July Maryland as I remember they were Maryland hounds to start with. Great hunting to all. James

Where did any of these dogs come from sir? You always talk about how pure your dog's are, but I feel the need to point out that all of these dogs came from Crosses of other hounds. It's not like the hand of God just sent down the July hound. There is no telling what kind of crap that nimrod fella from Maryland bred up to make these dogs. It could have been crosses from walkers? Why not? Walkers are a slightly older breed. Even tennessee lead was just some stolen potlicker. A man gets a pair of pups and names one July and one mary. Mary dies, people start breeding some other sort of dog to july....then bam! You all of the sudden have a pure breed that should never be allowed to breed to other dogs. Give me a break.

And if you are a man of the lord, then you have to believe that all breeds of dogs originated from the same place. So at many points through out the ages these dogs have been crossed and evolved into what we have today. And they will continue to be crossed and evolve as long as the game we peruse continues to evolve a grow smarter and faster.

Scientists say ALL DOGS come from WOLVES! Julys look more like wolves than walkers! Lol

What we call "July" dogs are much older than Walker dogs. "July" is a misnomer and the pure strain should be called Irish or Maryland or maybe even Henry but certainly not July. The Irish hounds Mountain and Muse are the foundation of the "July" strain and they were from a fully developed bloodline that had already been established across the ocean. Walker dogs were established by crossing English hounds, Native Virginia hounds, and TN Lead. It was probably in the 1870's before Walker or Maupin hounds were firmly established. The old breeders of the Maryland or Irish hounds were trying to keep pure a strain that had already been established. The Walkers and Hayden Trigg were trying to create strains that had not existed before.
Yes, the pure Maryland hounds were out crossed on other strains like the Sugarloaf but the object was always to keep them as pure as possible by breeding to hounds that went back to pure Irish or Mountain and Muse.
The Walker men did cross some of Ben Robinson's July hounds into their breeding and it is still there today.
Now has the Maryland hound been kept pure all these years? I doubt it. Furthermore the modern day pure breed hounds could most likely not have stayed in the same race with Longstreet of Mr Birdsongs or old July himself so why should go out of our way to preserve what is left when what is left is inferior to the foundation?

I put 9 inch ford running gears under a Chevy once! The truck was still registered as a Chevrolet and pulled like a ford. We also just bred a walker gyp to a July male....... I hope I get as good of results as the last time I merged 2 good products.

the hounds you are running are cross breed no matter what strain is stated on the papers there are strains that once were popular that no longer are that are probably in your hounds ancestry. I haven't heard of a Birdsong or a Hudspeth hound in along time.

I would suggest you read the book by Col Garrett 50 Years with Fox and Hounds it will open your eyes to much of the old time breeding and what we are trying to preserve, talks about the origin of Walkers and many other breeds even Marylands and how the July name originated. James

Dear sir what is the breed standard color for a southern bred July?

There is no standard color it takes about 5 generations to get what you want, some like white some other colors I judge them on their confirmation and abilities. I personally like the dark back and tan sides. In Garretts book he talks of Calicos from one family. some spotted dogs and the color that I like being prominent. James

Walkers were started in 1852 and July dogs were started in 1858. They were both cross breeds. I've never read anywhere that anyone says what breed of gyps were bred to Tennessee lead or July. This facination that people have with keeping the July bloodlines pure is all well and good, but don't go running hunters down for breeding what they want because that's how the hounds you love so much were made. Mr. Mcroan your dog's came from crossbreeding. And heath from what your saying, someone tainted the Irish foxhound waters when they made the cross to get the original july.

I understand the cross breeding but at what point if you breed the half to either straight walker/July does the offspring become pure bred again. It is my understanding that in cattle the fourth generation is considered pure bred. How many generations does it require for dogs? Just wondering

Gentlemen the outcrosses aren't going to eventually go back to pure Walkers or Julys over a period of time you will have those pop ups. You have fused those genes into the DNA of the crosses and will have to live with it, hope you like it. So many people just want to get their name called and will destroy an enire line of breeding. Just before my Uncle passed away he sold all of his dogs to a guy around the Baker, Fl area, he goes to jail for drugs all the dogs were farmed out, no one knew what they had and by now they are dead anyway, the loss was well over a hundred years of breeding down the tube never to be replaced. He still holds the honor of having the ONLY July to win the field and bench in the same year. We can hardly find any dogs that go back to his winner anywhere now. I have a pic of the event if Master Fox would like to show it to our great foxhunters. James

To "What?": Something we all forget is that the Walker and Maupin hounds as well as the Irish or Maryland and July hounds were bred into the preexisting hounds that had been in North America since colonization. You see them refered to as Virginia hounds and they were what everybody had for running grey fox. They would have looked like a bloodhound or black and tan coonhound I believe. There is also no telling what the Virginia hounds had been crossed on either accidentally or on purpose. Probably a little bit of many other breeds of non hound dogs that were running around back in those days. So what we think of as pure breeding stock is not actually pure but hopefully it is the closest thing you can get to the ideal genetics we are looking for.
Something else we have to consider is that just because you have something pure doesn't mean you have something good. Other than the novelty of having a pure breed animal there might not be any reason to keep preserving that bloodline. If you have a whole pack of pure bred Hudspeth foxhounds and they are outperformed in every way by the other breeds then what is the point of keeping that pack of pure breeds? Other than the novelty of preserving a little piece of history there isn't any reason to keep breeding inferior hounds just because they are pure.

That brindle was started with a cur .

Well put mr.howell

I know for certain , you can cross a reg. treeing walker female to a reg. blackmouth cur male, have 12 pups and you can't see and walker in them except trey tree harder and tighter at the tree. Hunt like a cur, look like a cur, voice like a cur, some open a little more on ground, handle like a cur, you would have know the mother was a treeing walker to believe it. This was first generation cross. A lot can be gained and lost in first generation, I've witnessed it first hand.

We all have opinions but can just hope for the best on any cross I bred a walker gyp to a reg. Blackmouth mouth male all 8 I raised had mostly walker traits hunted and ran like walkers a little eaisier to handle than pure bred walkers but most hunters have the alpha today to put a handle on their hounds . They made great hunting and pleasure hounds with extreamly good mouths over all . If I was deer hunting as much as I use to I would definatly try it again . Would I have the same luck maybe maybe not .as long as I don't try putting them off on someone else as a purebred hound there shouldn't be a problem in enjoying a good hound . Best of luck to you and your hounds .

There were and are men that mixed up pedigrees so most of you with the popular blood got bad papers and yes crossbreeds from bird dog to beagle. the money makers and commercial breeders ruined bloodlines year ago.......we all know papers are good if you know and trust the men involved.

They all turn out to be pure dog, I think????

Sir is that why you have in your southern July kennel a male trip colored hound with specs like a English or a bluetick. Where do those traits come from I've never seen them in pure southern or western blooded Julys. Maybe its a SCREW UP!

Before someone starts playing masterfox detective I'm going on record that was not me picking at your dog's james.

All the southern Julys I've encountered looked similar although you have one that is tricolered open spotted with ticking similar to a English coonhound or maybe a bluetick is it a southern July this color is not typical of the southern or western Julys maybe you have possibly bred a SCREEUP!

you july men with the "north Alabama" stuff the chase registered a few years ago should know you hav big white walkers and white english in yours....just so you know were that short white hair came from..H. would try anything.