Seen the T scores at the national? Will A.American be same?

I understand it rained throughout the futurity but 422 all age hounds cast with two and a half days of good hunting conditions and only two hounds scored in trailing! Are there any hounds left that can trail or do judges just don't score trailing anymore? The hound that placed 1rst in trailing with 25 pts. Had "0" hunting score, that is very unusual. If we were to look back at the scores 20 years ago all the way back to the beginning of the National I bet the score sheets look a lot different. I'm just sayin because what little hunting I do is on the outside and where I hunt if you don't have hounds that can trail a fox you are not going to have a fox race.

There is almost always a race within hearing distance out there so there isn't much need for Trailing. When you do see a hound that might otherwise get a Trailing score it is usually just way behind a race or running dog tracks. I have seen a few Trailing hounds that were right but it is rare even on the outside in a place with so much game of all varieties. At hunts with more fox I think there could be more Trailing but there has been mostly coyote running at the National the last 2 years I know.

This is outside hunting at Grenada,we have been going for many years.There are breaks in the running all the time.This is not wall to wall pen like running.To say it is pen like running or coyotes are not trailed on the outside is misinformation. Some don't agree with HGA hunts ,and my view point is they should not not attend or judge if they don't like the system.

Ok first off let me say this, to each his own you feeding them hounds you raise what you want, but through my eyes the nose has been just about bred out of most breeding's . So that may be part of the reason we aren't seeing as much hunting and trailing scores as we once did.And to some hunters that might be ok, but to some of us we still like a hound that has some nose with them. And as far as judging, got out and judge a field trail for a week straight and I bet you look at judging in a different way. Just my opinion, good hunting to all .

I agree with Brian, I think the nose has been bred out of the walker hound to the point a lot (if not most) are useless to outside hunters.
On scoring s/d the hound gets the benefit of doubt and score stands if identification of the game can not be determined. The judges I have worked with in the past and have observed work very hard to determine the identity of the game pursued.

You boys that want to scratch for deer can .as you should know the rules has been changed for 2 year to let you.

According to people that study dogs in depth say that all dogs have the same strength nose or scenting abilities. There is something in the brain that makes some dogs get excited with smell guicker than another. That's the reason some dogs open quicker than another one that is showing as much body language as he is. A dog that is is willing to break the brush over another is because he is more excited by the smell than the other. this type dog is usually not as fast. If you run these two types together on the outside where a loss of track occurs you will eventually see the dog that is skirting the thicket start feeding off the voice of the more excitable dog and rely on him to get track back to his excitement level. Where as in a pen he can swing out and grab a new piece of game if he misses what he was running. What ever it takes to win the money is going to be the dog of the future, if you don't keep your own stock. Trial rules and their interpretation by the judges and the associations will determine what type dog a man will buy if he starts hunting for the first time 10 years from now. Wonder what it will look like and how it will do in the woods?

I don't think the pens have anything to do with how SOME dogs run. I know of a dog that will trail,jump and run in a pen if there is no other dogs running when he gets there. No way of really proving it but I don't think he switches game.

I put my name shame on you if you are ashamed of your opinion. First off if you think we breeding inferior dogs you are wrong we at the brink of having to do something to help the game. A dog that had to hunt in most pens has an inferior noses. The dog with the best nose is the one driving the game not in the road but pushing the game. It amazes me that dogs can run at great speed and turn as the game turns. We have bred the noses to a higher standard by breeding speed. If you think a dog has to walk to trail a piece of game has a good nose you are wrong. The dog scoring hunting in a lot of trials is one in the road not in the bushes. Just my opinion and you can disagree. I could say you have the right to be wrong but I want say it LOL just kidding just a different look.

PS. We hunters ought to cull harder and give judges something better to look at. That Garmin is a great tool but it makes us lazy on honing our skills on knowing a dogs mouth and his ability. Please be nice when you read this and think about it instead of screaming at me. Lol. I can't hear youth

Outside,inside, today are totally different in the big hunts. Unless the hunt is in a big pen with low game it isn't comparable.No hunter needs to trail with 150 coyotes in a hunt in a pen.Pen hunters forgot long ago about listening after the cast for that first whimper of a strike and the investigation of what hound is doing the work up to the jump when the rest fall in the race.Then noticing during the race what hound was making the pickups. Those days along with homing are gone for a pen hunter's list of qualities in a breeding program.And that's not wrong or right.It's just the way it is.Trailing should be looked for at outside hunts.You see what your looking for and facts show trailing at outside hunts is over looked.

I seems to me that on the outside the hound with the best nose is the one that stays after the game and runs it all over 30,000 acres with no wire to turn the game back into the pack. I have never really felt like I needed a "trailing" dog to produce game. Maybe I have just been lucky. I think lots of hunters these days have hounds that produce game without going through the process that would earn them a trailing score in a field trial. We have had basically the same breeding in our kennel for close to 20 years and very few of these dogs will ever get a hunting score or a trailing score. I wish they would wiggle and pop a little more because a hunting hound is an exciting thing to watch. It's just as fun to watch as a full cry race to me. Now, even though these dogs don't do what gets scored for hunting in a field trial, they do produce game. They just run wide open until they run across scent and then they work it up and jump it in a hurry and the race is on. We are blessed with plenty of game so its just not that hard to get a race going. The only reason I have ever wanted a trailing dog is to get a score in a field trial and that is kinda like the tail wagging the dog. I love hunting scores and really only believe in two categories (Hunting and S&D) and would love to see them equally weighted. I like the way the National used to do it in the beginning. Add the Trailing scores to the Hunting scores and make one HGA category. I can see if you hunt where game is scarce then you need the trailing hound. Folks that run fox only I imagine would really value the trailing hound.

As to why there are fewer trailing scores given at the National I really do think it has to do with the game and possibly with the way the judges approach their job.
First, I am told there used to be tons of red fox running and more fox running in general at the National. I have only been the last 2 years and the leadership has made a choice for lots of different reasons to set up a hunt where the scored running is mostly on coyotes. There are plenty of native coyotes and plenty of additional coyotes. I think it is much more common to see a hound trailing a fox just because of the way they run and the way most hounds run them. If there were mostly fox in the area i bet you would have a full class of trailing.
Also, I think the judges do put a big emphasis on covering the races. I don't know how it used to be. Now, they get after the packs of running hounds and don't spend much time looking for anything else. If there is a breakdown I'm sure they look for the other scores but they are hustling to get the running scores any time a pack is in hearing distance. Thats just what I've seen.
I have seen legit trailing hounds at the National in the last 2 years. Even got some on video. Last day of the National last year it was windy and had been dry. Hard for dogs to pack up. Great conditions for trailing scores. That would be a case where a trailing hound would have great value. I don't recall if more scores were given last year or not. It is really hard to see enough work to award a trailing score. You have to get lucky and be in open woods or clearcuts or else get out in the woods and follow the hounds.

Most hunters these days don't care what their dog is doing right or wrong as long as it's first in a crossing.Need to scratch at every level.Babbling and cutting are ridiculous this day and time.And as far as culling goes there are as many hunters as hounds that need culling.Just my opinion to.

Most people that hunt and field trial keep dogs they hunt in the woods and dogs they money hunt with. They do now there is a difference.

Sorry to get in the middle of this debate, I was just reading to learn, but Pulpwood made a statement and others about the nose and smelling ability on hounds. They are not all the same, different bloodlines have different scent ability, the average dog has 1-2 million scent glands, others have as many as 3 million. Not to argue, but some can smell better, they just might not use it.

Opinion sorry you can't spell your name. But if you don't think dogs are better now we disagree. I am not talking about these sight runners. I am talking about dogs driving there game. A dog on the front of the race to me has a better nose than that dog hunting. Because a dog hunts does not mean he has a superior nose

John, I started running dogs for fun in 1959. I really can't see any difference in the dogs I had then and the ones I have now. I had more that didn't pan out then and I have the same thing now 50+years later. The thing I see a big difference now is we have much more game to run than we haver had. I have hunted all week driving dogs in the early 60s and never have a really good race. Very seldom see a deer.we Had no coyote and a few fox. We had to have dogs that could start from scratch from what few tracks we could find, they were mostly running dog/tree dog cross. For some reason the red tick/running dog did best for us. Even back then the pure running dog wasn't the best all around dog. The running dog was ok after the 50/50 dog brought the track up to the jump, but we couldn't feed extra dogs just to run, they had to contribute more than that . I hunted with other people sometimes that had all running dogs and they could find game but most of the time they were out of hearing when they jumped. We had no tracking collars and that was very tough hunting. Yesterday I stood watching my dogs trailing a deer and listening to 3 more different races going on on our 4000 acre cutover. They could have been running deer,coyote,fox,cat,coon, armadillo, or wild hog. And I can do that 365 day of the year if I want to. What I'm saying is my dogs have a lot more opportunity to shine now than they did then. A lot more game to run makes better dogs. I remember a few dog I had then that I wish they would had the chance to hunt today

There is a great difference in noses on hounds and the ability to move a cold track , During deer season we always notice the deer hounds with tree stock in them opening way before the running dogs open and you can watch them on the Garmin or get in the brush with them. Sometimes it is several mins before a running dog will go to opening on the same track and it's not always a deer these tree dogs run yotes to.

I believe you Derek, but that has not always been true, back in the 70s I had a truck load of liquor, Yazoo, hill bred stuf that could cold trail a deer just as good as the tree dogs and when they jumped it leave the tree dogs in the dust. The last 13 years have had to depend on a treeing walker to start cold tracks from the road.
I have some deer dogs but am mostly a fox hunter, have some hounds that will run nothing but fox, and a bobcat when I can find one.
I track hunt a lot for fox and cat because both are scarce where I can hunt (it's the fastest way to have a race here) but it is unbelievable to me how hard it has been to find hounds now a days that can trail a relatively fresh track from the road and put it to running.
I'm sure for the pen hunters the hounds are better today for what y'all do but they ain't for what I do, fox hunt in the wild. I know a lot of you can't hunt in the wild and I barely can but I am going to keep hammering at it as long as I have a place I can turn one loose. When I can't do that anymore I'll just run rabbits with beagles, that's fun too when you have a half dozen old retired fox hunters to run with.

Blain, I would like to only run cat and fox but I can't keep mine straight. I can correct them till they want run anything.i have dogs that will road, box and cast (same dogs) unless you see a track you never know what they are going down on. Iv had them box turkey and run them till they flew. A covey of quail crossed the road other day and the box exploded. They run fox and cat as well as anything so when they strike I turn them out and hope for the best. With the number of deer and coyote being probably 50 times more than cat and fox you can figure what I'm running most. I forgot coon, probably have more coon than anything. I have more 10 minute red hot races that end like you flip a switch. I could say that cat sure treed quick but I never could fool myself. Everybody that's going to show me how to catch a cat does the same thing I'm doing when they get here?????????

Pulpwood, I understand 100%, I have hunted most my life with hounds that cast and don't know what they are running until it's to late to stop them and the dogs know what you are disciplining for. I decided a while back I wanted broke fox dogs, I can not take credit for how clean my dogs are, I was blessed by a gift from a man of a dog that roads, handles great and will not run anything but a fox or cat, if another dog wrings its tail real hard on trash she will hang her head and just watch them if they open she comes gets in the truck fast, because of her I can correct them as soon as they think trash. It don't take but a couple of times for them to ignore the trash. This morning at 4 o'clock I stopped the truck to put the dogs down and 2 deer walked across the road in the headlights while I was turning them out, they roaded right past them standing in the cut 30 yds off the road, 200 yds on down the road struck a fox and had a 4 hour fox race. Yes I still got out and found the track to make sure, saw the fox cross the road several times after daylight. There is also 50 deer and coyotes to every fox here, just since I've had these dogs I haven't had a problem with them.
Now several opened and they all acted real interested right after dark one night where some turkeys had walked, but they are not a problem because I hunt at night but if we road up on a possum or skunk in the road it gets shook, one is more irritating than the other.
I try not to tempt them by running with others who have known deer/coyote runners.
I also have some deer hounds and like yours they will run turkeys, I don't know how to stop them, it's over before I know what they've done.
I hope you don't think I am bragging about anything, I am just appreciative of the gift the man gave me and the enjoyment I am having with the hounds she has helped train. They are nothing special just some dogs that can barely run a fox. The old dog can trail pretty good, haven't found another with the nose and trailing ability of hounds I've owned in the past, that's the only reason I've commented on this post. Sorry if I've helped get it off topic.

Blane I thimk I'm jinxed when it comes to breaking dogs. For some reason I ruin them completely.

I hunt on outside.There are some fox on the pine company we hunt on.I bought some hounds that had placed in pens for a big price thinking I could enjoy running popular bloodlines.They did not try to hunt,could not stay in race,cared less about jumping a fox.I am not mentioning breeding but I will say its always at the top.Glad I kept some old local stock or I would be without on the outside running these gray fox .

I would bet that if you bought the popular bloodlines as unstarted puppies and trained them like you hunt then they would have done fine. Not to say the field trial bloodlines are as good or better because they have been bred for a specific purpose that is different than outside hunting but I believe most of the way a hound acts as far as if he hunts and runs his own game has alot to do with how that hound was trained.

Heath I agree with you 100 percent you hit the nail on the head.

Mr. Pulpwood I know hunters know the difference in pen dogs and outside dogs to.I ain't just starting.

There is a difference in a name and a no name to just for your info.

Billy, I have a female that was like that , started running her with walker/beagle mix and she now is usually Second or third on a crossing and contributes a lot to picking up checks. Before she was swinging and and having to hustle to get back in place. it took her several months to get right.. She will take over the race after about 5 hrs but usually won't run but about 10 yds ahead. She learned what happens if she gets to far out fronts and swings the wrong way. If I would have started her with the dogs I have now she probably would have been ok from the start. You are right, best to start them with dogs that are right for you.

Heath, l tried that experiment, it didn't work good for me, unlike Billy's experience mine was hunting machines but hunted in a straight line and was out of hearing of myself and each other when they jumped. I was using them for deer hunting and nearly always had 3-4 one dog races going at same time in different direction. If I hadn't had telemetry l'd never kept up with any of them. None of them could trail a track from the road, if I heard them bark they were running. If you turned the deer back at a road a lot of times they'd lose it and never pick it back up. My opinion they had no nose.
I had 4, 3 out of the same litter so it may have been just my bad luck. Surprisingly they were excellent homers, got out of beeper range many times and couldn't find them, they always came back to where I turned them out.

It takes a hound that will hunt close to were cast were we hunt.We put them near the fox sign.I don't know much but I think its in their breeding to hunt and jump a gray.Some may can but don't want too maybe.Maybe the above post is right that blood is blood and its the trainer.Just not my experience with fox.

Mr hooper, I have had the same experience with pen bread dogs hunting them on outside. I had a hellems bread hound, placed in trailing and hunting in several different hunts. I could put him in the rd with dogs working a fox ahead of the truck and the dog act like he never smell it. That's not the only time I've seen that,ive also tried starting them from pup's and it still did not work. Just wasn't enough noise also seen my broke dogs not cover unbroke dog's. Idk how they know but they do. I'm not knocking nobody dogs but I don't believe hounds have the noise they had 20 years ago, heck not even 10 years ago. I also believe dogs that can't smell will not be able to run the front and hold it unless site running in a small pen. Ppl can make up different situations and try and explain it in all these sophisticated worded post but the bottom line is a fox dog with no noise is a sorry dog. Plain and simple. Have good day and happy hunting

How many out there still trying to hunt and run fox on the outside? Not deer hunt part time ,but true fox hunting.

I deer hunt part time, BUT NOT with the same hounds I fox hunt with. Does that disqualify me as a fox hunter? I get mighty run down during deer season, running deer dogs in the day with my sons and then fox hunting most of the night. Glad deer season is over, I'm putting a little weight back on and now I can hunt all night.

nose is in the breeding, but even some full mates have a better nose than the rest of the litter. most of the time more nose means less speed. the trick is to breed cold nose tough gyps to high headed leggy males with speed. the one with nose, speed and endurance is called a freak, when in truth it was the result of a successful combination of traits

To guess at the number of outside foxhunters left in the country, would I be bad off the number to say 100 foxhuntes?The kind that don't buy a big game stamp and make more coffee at midnight .My how this nation has re made itself.