I still have several July hounds and some of them even suit me sometimes. I'm sure most of you are saying, This guy is trying to combine July and Wolf Hound in the same article, He'll never get it. Well sorry for them. However, contrary to popular belief, I'm not in the same narrow minded category. I have witnessed some wolf hounds of other breeds. I also know most on here are Walker hound fanciers so I'll direct my search to those of such.

Here are a few names I recall as worth remembering. Sun Dial and Winnstay hounds, Black Rocket 88, Wilson's Smokey Joe, Prather's Denver, Abe Lemons, Big Boy Harris, ...... I'm being summonsed to go now so I'll try geting back with more names later but can anybody still relate to some of these hounds and tell me where on this earth a person could find hounds tracing back to them? If anybody can convince me of other bloodlines equal to or better then those I've mentioned for being coyote catching hounds, Please share.

Abe Lemons Where was he from????

Mark, The Wilson's Smokey Joe hound, was he an Oklahoma-bred hound? A hunter up here named Walter Bower got hounds from Johnny Wilson in Ok and some of them produced some good coyote hounds.
Maybe the best all-around outside coyote hounds I've seen up here came from crossing line bred Haggin-Raider gyps on a line bred Rose Haven hound named Flying Witch Nitro.
They were red hounds with lots of type and heel and many of them born deer proof. John Moore and Perry Newnham ran a lot of them in Prince Edward County, which has small woodlots and a lot of big, open fields.
They caught a lot of coyotes with those hounds and they'd finish the job, once they caught one.
Most of the Nitro hounds wouldn't take well to big packs in pens, but outside, most hounds couldn't get up with them, to put pressure on them.
In pens, if the road runners and cutters worked on em long enough, they'd set the bucket down, but if you hunted outside, they were a load.

Mark I was like you just a kid but I can remember some of those hounds and some that was not mentioned. All of those hunters back then where hunters and did not put up with the things hunters put up with today. Mark I am not a july man but I can remember some good julys and goodmans back then to. Hunters back then did not have the problems that a hunter today has. The best hound I seen run a coyote was SP Glovers hound Archie he had it all from start to finish.

Kevin, I have NO idea.

Eric, Yes Johnny W. had Smokey Joe. Are any of the red dogs you speak of left up there?

Travis, I agree with you. Hunters and hounds do have more obsticals to deal with today. But why did the bloodlines I speak of die out. It wasn't because of lacking speed or endurance. Did the Archie dog have any connection to Glover's Powerhouse ?

OBSTICLES

No, Mark. That was years ago. There are a few with crosses from those hounds back in their pedigrees, but it's been mixed with other stuff.
Til the Wolfe Island went outside a few years ago, all of our trials were in pens and much of our summer running.
The Nitro hounds wouldn't stand up to big packs in pens so a lot of people moved on.
Much as I enjoy pen running and trials in pens, I believe they've curtailed the number of catch-and-stretch wolf hounds.
Fast track running hounds seem to be ideal for pen competitions. Some judges won't score them unless they're right on the line and lots of good coyote hounds would drift the track or even run 10 or more yards downwind of it.
Also, hard fighting hounds wear out their welcome in pens as well as spending a lot of time in culverts instead of scoring at trials.
Nothing is without its downside. There are still some good outside coyote hounds up here, but not as many and very few in the class of those old red rascals.

Mark Abe lemons was owned by John McFarland of Leedy Oklahoma.
I did not get to run with Abe but did run with his pups and great grand pups and they where GREAT wolf hounds. If you want to know more call me 620-478-2256.
Smokey Joe was from OK. Johnny Wilson had him He was also before my time but I saw and heard his ofspring run may nights and they wherer also WOLF HOUNDS.
Man I wish I could find some hounds that had this blood lines close up .
Mark I would say SPEED is the reason we do not see these blood lines that you are talking about, the ones I have run with where not FAST overall but where good steady track running hard fighting hounds

Ya, Kevin, I knew about Abe. We'd had some talk about this before. Couple years or so ago. Did you forget? Must be losing your memory. How dang old are you man? But what about the Sun Dial, Winnstay and Black Rocket hounds? They had speed.

Jerry O'Dell carried a gyp by the name of Red Wing Wilks down to Johnny's and bred to Wilson's Smokey Joe back in 1968. I was only 5 years old at the time so I don't personally know that much about old Joe himself but sure remember some of the pups that he sired. They never lacked speed for this country. And plenty of fight. Jerry's favorite was a male he called Woody. I've still got his papers here somewhere. I later owned pups sired by the Woody dog that made some enimies.

I think Eric has probably hit the nail on the head about these old bloodlines. Too much fight that became undesired for the pens.

Seems like the majority is pens anymore. I guess one must settle for what he has but it's sure taken the hound out the dogs in my opinion.

Not much feedback on this topic. I suppose these old bloodlines are extinct.

I remember,didnt know if you did
I think a lot of the old hard fighting boodlines died off with alot of the old hunters,when they die so dose the bloodlines. Other people get their hounds and dont line breed those bloodlines so they get waterd down in a hurry.
Wow you are old I was only 2 in 1968 you have me by 3 years .
I still say the best overall coyote hounds I have ever run with where the Elder bred dogs of western Oklahoma. Not one of those breeders is still alive,and all of that old bloodline is gone

Mark you an Kevin are still a little younger than myself What about SS Mr.T,SS Curley Tuggles Big Red Doc Henry Catch em Pork chop,SS Tammy, Copper's Ringwood, Carr's Marvin,an a little Perry's crooked Fred. Like you guys know, No one whats to share imfo on the real hounds of 20 years or longer. If a fellow hits on something they don't what to share even half of the blood. Kevin

Anybody ever hear of Big Tim Liquor or Ruff Gunner ? Tough, good mouths, plenty of speed.

Never realy seen or heard any Liquor dogs run hear a lot about them. Would't mind crossing on some Liquor blood areally good gyp. Kevin

mark the black rocket 88 dog was raise by a good friend of mine this olmans name was Bill Bethel. he also had a dog named bethel's rocket 76 and bethel's rock. I believe he sold alot of this bloodline that was left of it to Donnie Butler. but dont hold me to it. I dont think donnie has any of this anymore. Bill was raised and still lives in Waldron, AR. Doesnt hunt anymore. I have seen copys and old papers of this bloodline he and his dad Griff Bethel raised and lot of pictures I was to young but other people have told me these hounds were for real!

hey kevin kinder are you talking about Sonny Stotts MR T July dog. If it is the same dog I got to run with He was something to watch.The thing i will never forget was he had been hung in a fence and lost a leg An he was stringing dogs across corn fields bean fields An hay fields never seen nothing like it.He was 28" tall blk@tan.out of Tuggle"s red ranger @ tuggle"S Grey Gal.I had a July Gyp I bred to him that looked more like a Irish setter than a July.I remember Sonny helping him out only had 3 legs.Only kept 1 Ended up giving him to sonny .I still see him in some july"s ped.name was Cameron"S JIM DANDY

Yes Terry this is the same hound, but S.S.Mr.T. was out of SS Curley X SS Tammy, Tammy was out Tuggles Red Ranger X Tuggles Grey Gal, Campbell's Topsie an SS Tammy were litter mates, Didn't know Sonny but few fellows talked about him an his dogs real houndman an his dogs showed it.Not sure what part of the country your from think I seen your name in the Horn.Do you run alot in pens or outside there are some I mean real outsde hounds around. Kevin Kinder happy hunting

Hey Eric--Ran with Gary Jareo yesterday. He sure had a fine looking pup he got from a Mr. Walker of Mo. looked and colored just like a Walker.

Ted, Perhaps he's finally seen the light and is coming over from the dark side.
Good for him!!! Never thought it would happen. He was pretty hard corps. Guess there is still hope for Mark, Hillbilly, Whitey, PP and the rest.
I've always held out hope for the Medicine Chief. He is a reasonable man.

SILVER HAS JUST ENOUGH COLOR ON HIM TO GIVE THE WALKER MEN UP THERE A LITTLE HOPE....BUT SORRY NO WALKER BLOOD THERE...HE IS OUT OF PIATTS SILVER J WHO WON THE JULY NAT AS A DERBY DOG THEN CAME BACK THE NEXT YEAR AND PLACED IN THE ALL AGE...DONT WORRY ERIC I HAVENT COME TO MY SENCES YET...

MARK WHEN I WAS A KID THE ONES I REMEMBER BEING WOLF HOUNDS WERE OUT OF RED AND SALLY OR WILD BILL AND GOOSE..WE DIDNT EVEN HAVE A REG HOUND UNTIL I WAS GROWN...

hey eric-yes i remember the nitro & rose haven hounds but i hunted with archie nagle & norm pegg when the bounty & hides were a way to make a extra $ they had a lot of baldwin blood back then & man could they run a wolf down.they were smart hounds & hard to run with-- norm crossed out on howard pickett & they lost confirmation & speed-of course they go together but the wheels are coming back in hounds that are fast in the pen-but not the brains

Ya Kevin I still have the horn papers on Mr T that Sonny gave me And on my Jim Dandy dog They both say Tuggles REd Ranger an Tuggles Grey Gal.Any way they were sure enough good ones.That was a long time ago.It was 1983 when i bred to him.I live in west central mo.run on the outside 99.9% of the time.I got one pen i run in of Carl roys.Its about a hour away.He trains my pups when i have some.Any way great talking about good wolf hounds no matter how long ago.Also had some out of Glovers Powerhouse that were sure good hounds.Like to have kept that breed alive.Happy Hunting Terry

Jack, The Baldwin blood was pretty much gone by the time I started hunting. Still some back in pedigrees.
Would have loved to see some of those good looking dudes operate. Imagine -- show hounds that could run. What a great concept. Glad we're coming back to it with bench shows running AFTER the first day's running.
I believe there are pen hounds today that COULD run with those old Nitro or Baldwin hounds and likely have more toughness and gameness. However a lot of them will never see the outside, some will only see it on occasion and others have lost the grit required of a top outside hound.

Hey Eric--Just got a wonderful idea. The Master's braintrust didn't select us as judges this year. You and I agree we both would like to see Missouri and THE BIG VALLEY pen. Maybe we should offer our judging expertise to these lads for their Oct. Trial. we could see first hand what these Julies are all about. Think this over. Spent some time with Mr. and Mrs. PP at Jena at 08 Master's. They told me to look them up should I ever be in Missouri

Hey Kevin i have to opologize I think OLD TIMERS has set in.My JIM Dandy dog was out of SS TOMMY Not MR T.Tommy was the three legged dog i bred to.I need to learn how to read.See ya Terry.

Terry you would't happen to know Shannon Bell there in Bogart,Mo.I met him a year an half ago, picked up a pair of pups at Cameron and stop there to talk to him an bought a female july/croghan breed tater hill patches she was as fat as a butterball an the first time out she flat tore her pads off but that girl had heart never seen a 14 month old running that long on feet in that shape.Doctor her feet an layed her up three weeks tought I really had a hound the next time turned lose got her an another dog run over was I ever sick lost two fine young hounds. I think Shannon hunts with a guy his name Rogers I want to say his first name is Ronnie not sure. Later Kevin

kevin i don"t know Shannon.Cameron is quite aways away from me.Im 50 miles south of Kansas City. Amsterdam Mo.I have been very lucky with not having lost any on the hiway.It always seems to happen to the ones you like the most.My son an me are the only ones around with coyote hounds.most times he cant go when i can or vice versa.so i go by myself most of the time

Kevin Kinder,

I've always been fan of Crooked Fred.

As for Copper's Ringwood, I've ran his offspring and liked most of it. Never got to see Ringwood in action but was a pretty good looking old hound when I saw him down at Allspach's. Larry had 50 some hound but consisted of only one full July. That was Ringwood. I assumed he must have been good in order for Larry to be keeping and breeding to him.

Stuart Gilbert stood Mr.T at stud along with his Mountain Magnum hound. Told in the bood he was a 28" hound. I had my doubts so I went to see for myself. He was a big heavy built Black and Tan hound. And was all of the 28. I purchased a nice gyp that was already mated to him. Had 12 pups. Kept most of them up to a little past running age but not long after. The mother was good but the pups was average at best. Opinion was unfairly based on that one litter but I searched for no more.

Ran with Carr's Marvin a few times. Average to a little better speed. Good driving hound but could be easily pressured out of a race. He'd rather find another than reclaim. Produced some of the same.

Freedom Creek Kennels,

Thanks for the information. Where are you from?

Mark, Kevin Kinder mentions a hunter named Ronnie Rogers. Didn't he own House's Hoss at one time?
Never saw the hound, but from what I hear he was a wolf hound.
I believe Jeff Brinchek bred the hound. Wasn't much of a grey fox dog so they sent him to Miss. to run reds.
Somewhere out there, he discovered coyotes and hated them immediately. The rest, as they say, was history. Any hunters that I've heard who saw him run, thought he was the real deal.

You are right Jeff was the breeder of Hoss and he did end up at Ronnies house. Jeff told me that Hoss would come dack to the truck and listen to the other dogs run a grey fox. He would run a red some but not very hard,but once he smelled coyote it was on.
I was able to judge him at the Kansas State one year and he was 100% coyote hound,in 3 days we caught 13 and he was in on 10 of them,some by himself.

eric-roger martin [lobo pines kennel] had a hound called BF freight that sired by hoss-i tryed to cross a gyp but was too late-roger said he was a deluxe wolf hound-i've never saw a hound with more scars on his face than that old boy!

Eric, Mark an Guys, I found O'dell's Woody in the fifth gen. Graham Coons Lakefield Ont. Can. breed Rzz Goober Rob Zavitz owns the hound I think. Waltzing Woody is straight out of O'dell's Woody. an found Black Rocket 88 II Dave Atwell Chariton Ia. Hi-Side Rockin'Rocket, Hi-Side Annie, Garners Millie, Garners Wendy, KD Daisy Keith Desidere in La owns Daisy. I knew about House's Hoss from Charlie Turner 10-4 Kevin Kinder

Yes Eric, What Kevin Harris said. Hoss' stay in Miss. was at Louis Holliman's. Coyotes was favored by him there but the heavy brush was still a factor as the story has it. Nothing holding him back in Missouri or Kansas though.

Kevin K.,

Slow down man, Use a period and comma or two, take a deep breath, you're throwing me out.

Where have you found these dogs with the Woody blood?
Waltzing Woody was my hound. I mated a Black Rocket 88 gyp called Waltz Away Roxie to him twice. I also mated Roxie to Atwell's Charlie owned by Don Atwell of Melrose, Ia. I tried mating her to Charlie's sire, Atwell's Brandy but he was too old. I also mated another female to Beyer's Black Hawk who was by the Hi Side Rockin Rocket dog owned by Don Fleener. I'm slooooow, Please explain your finding for me a bit clearer. I'm sure interested. Or just post some registration numbers for me. Thanks, Mark

Jack, Dave Shane had a male hound which I believe was out of one of Rodger Martin's hound called Freight. Has to be the same hound.
Dave said he was a very good outside hound and fought hard. He wasn't real fast but was game and pen tough with a big chop mouth. He died last winter.
Dave still has a gyp which I think is a litter mate to him. She has ran very well this spring.

Mark,didn't think I was going that fast,,, Page 91 right side lower right Sept 09 Horn 10-4 Page 86 same book lower right side. Never Talked to Ronnie Rogers my self, Shannon Bell called me a few days later, after I was at his place, asking if I would sale any of the ringwood dogs that Ronnie would be interested in one of them I didn;t an they are now at HIllbillys. 10-4 Kevin

Mark give me a little time I have seen this Waltzing away Roxie several times, I place yellow sticky post- on dogs I would like to Know more about. Several months back or longer you an Kevin Harris talked about the Rocket 88 dog an seen him in there so I marked it Kevin Kinder

BTT