I was looking back at some old posts and found this one and I remember thinking it was one of the best ideas I had even seen on the message board. It was posted by LaVerne Gordee. What do you guys think about the idea now.

"I've never been a 3 day trial guy, so take this for what it's worth. I have read all these comments for a couple of years now about shifting scoring values, new categories, etc. I believe a new scratch category would do more for picking the best hound at a trial than any scoring change. That scratch category would be ambushing. That type of hound is worthless outside the wire and extremely detrimental inside the wire. They screw up the race, then drop out, over, over, and over again. A top notch track hound with a good nose and athletic ability can overcome these ambush artists in most pens, most of the time. But let's face it gentlemen, they are in the way of good hounds that carry the track and do the job. It is a sin worse than loafing because it blows the race and cheats good hounds. They also cause game to be caught needlessly. The time is way past overdue to stand up and scratch these useless pieces of dog flesh."

Not trying to smart off! But if a hound can cut and swing and still win he has got to be doin something right... It takes a heck of a dog to learn how to do that and a smart one to.. So if the hound is wining he is just better
at what he does than the dog that runs the track.. Plus an important man in my live always said if you ain't cheatin you ain't trying

Bob a very important man in my life said "cheaters never win and winners never cheat" try to live his you will be much happier!

yea bob he is doing good at being worthless. the walker and july strain of hound years ago was bred and raised to run on the outside. back when hounds were first bred and raised to foxhunt there was no pens. when people started wanting to watch dogs run fast with no ability to hold his game they put a fake rabbit in front of them and started to watch them run in circles. So I agree with the post above yours. I think that a new scratch category would do more for the walker and july hound in years to come than any new rule being proposed now such as this controversial drug policy. I mean what what good are we doing to our future hounds for the younger generation and heck even our generation if we breed to masters champions that are "drug free" but cut and slash. would be better if we did have a rule like that but i'm not the rule maker and don't attend field trials much anymore after the way the powers to be did some judges. just my opinion and I know it dont count for much. so bring on the smart no name comments

My papa didnt mean cheat by this.. This is not gard to understand. He was a man that made me figure out what he ment and befor he died he asked if I knew,wat he ment and I did! It means if you cant beat em one way do it another way that you are better at than they are.. Cuttin is not cheatin its just that dog's way of tryin to win.. And im happy because my papa made me belive in winning not losin! But im only 17 so im not tryin to cost problems I have both types if dogs and thats why I take my fast and smart dogs to open pens and my track dogs to thicker pens

Really guys there is a difference in a hound swinging to get the front and one that doesn't get out of the road! Some of the hardest hitting dogs I've ever seen can and will do it inside and outside the wire! These were true hounds ones that knew how to get and hold a race and over take the ones that hit them on the road and knew how to get up and drive their game not tell you were it use to be. One of the best races I have ever heard on the outside was a red fox race and there was several dogs there tightening the race up every chance they got and they did it with out hitting a road so their is a big difference in a road running pen dog that doesn't know how to run and a swinging front end hound just pointing that out

The way I see it, if it cuts it aught to be scratched. All I will keep at my house and in my pack is track running hounds. I believe if a hound won't stick to what I turned it out on then I don't need it. I run in and out of the pens fox and deer so a cutting dog does me no good. And if it's cutting then it's not hunting like a hound should be, so in my opinion in a trial if it cuts it should get scratched.

I like the idea---I think it would improve hounds as much as anything we could ever do---

I'm older than many and I have hunted since I was a little boy---I've seen and heard some of the best outside running any man could dream of---I was there with the birth of enclosures and I have personally lived thru the experience of operating a 400 acre fox pen---I've watched sorry hounds standing in the roads shaking and trembling, waiting on the coyote to cross and then 3 minutes later the same hounds were back in the same road waiting on the same piece of game to cross again---It makes me sick to even think of it---

And fellows I'm talking about this happening at some of my favorite trials, trials that I started---So don't think for a minute that everything has been done that can be done to make our sport better---Believe in yourself and think about what you can do---Just that thought alone always brought a new spark to my day---I'm to old and to tired---You youngsters are going to have to hitch up to the wagon---And I know you can and will---

I like the idea of sctraching them myself. BUT my dogs are track running dogs that stay on what they are running "BUT" evry now an then for some reason they will hit the road for what i don't no??? Now my dogs winning in points for the whole hunt an the last hour he does his move to the road that he has not run down not one time the whole hunt an gets scratched????? So now the qestion is this will one judge get to strach him or 2 or more have to see him at differant times?? Make to where a few judges has to see the same number before you strach? I mean come on every dog will hit that road sooner or latter good or bad.

I think we're talking about 2 different things.

Cutting and Ambushing arent the same.

A dog standing in the road, obviously smart to the sport, and waiting for the game to come to him and AMBUSH is one thing.

A dog that wants the front and is breaking his back to get to it , whether its down the road, across a cut corn field or winding thru old growth flats is CUTTING to the race to get to the front. Nobody says or wants him to go back and retrace where the race went...want him going to where its going...as best he can tell.


We were at a hunt very recently, a judge came up the road in a huff to the gate , told a guy to get him another pad he was gonna take care of these road runners. Then he left in a huff back up the road. And you see some judges dashing up the road to catch a crossing. And some dashing up a road to dash up a firelane to try to get a crossing. Then dash up another road to another race......

Just like the dog dashing up the road to find the front of the race...

Explain to me what a hounds Purpose in life is if it doesnt Use any means nessacery to get In a race after all they say All is Fair in Love and War!!

Yes if a dog is gettng ahead more power to him but if one is standing still or pacing back an forth looking an waiting on the game then send his end packing cause he is worthless!!!!

Laverne and Fred are right about the ambushers. Hank and Jason are right about the competitors. Much more common than either of these are the hounds that are too young, inexperienced, dumb, or slow, whatever their excuse, that runare the road and should be scratched for exhibiting qualities undesirable in a champion.

The Ambushing scratch we talked about passing years ago was slightly modified from what Mr. Gordee posted when he originally introduced the idea.

Ambushing was supposed to be something like what Fred mentioned. A hound that is trying to catch the game by waiting at a crossing for it to come out so he can get right on top of it and run it down or possibly even catch it in the road. There are not a whole bunch of hounds like this. These are the kind that get banned from fox pens. That is a good scratch to have handy since the hound isn't really Loafing and he isn't really doing what most people thnk of when they think of Failing to Hark.
It should probably be a two judge to scratch rule, at least at first.

What "Ambushing" was not supposed to cover was a hound using a road to get in a race or anything like what would have have fallen under the old scratch known as Cunning Running (or Running Cunning, I can't remember what order those two words were in). All the hounds in a field trial will have to use a road to get back in a race after another hound puts in ahead of them. If they don't use a road to get back up they will get lapped when the race comes back by them.

If we are going to bring back an old scratch then we need to call it what it is and not try to sneak it in under a new name. I'll vote for a Road Running type scratch because I think it will lead to a lot less hounds being cast on the 2nd and 3rd day at field trials and I consider that a good thing. We might end up like those old Texas Open hunts where they hand out the bench show awards and tell everybodt to go home because there were not any hounds that finished the hunt. I'm up for trying it but you would have to give a lot of strikes (think 10 judge to scratch rule) if you want to have a full class in the HGA.

I built my pen in the early 80's, it was second one in La. that I am aware of. It was a new era, a new order of field trialing with the old national rules. These were not pen hounds, because the pen had only been operational for about 6 months before my first trial, and thats when I realized that something needed to be done because of the cutting hounds.They were catching gamne and ruining good races. I presumed the position as Master of Hounds by default, and on the second hunt(along with the approval of the judges) decided to scratch according to the rule of cunning running and interferring with a race. each judge took notes on the particular hounds believed to be in fault and in the open judges meeting each hound "that was under concideration" was evaluated and each judge was asked for his vote as yes or no to the scratch. I only remember a couple of hounds that were voted to be scratched due to excessive cunning running. So I would conclude that it worked.I have never had this discussion since then.

"Cutting and Ambushing are not the same", by Hank Cranford. THIS ONE STATEMENT IS THE ESSENCE OF THE WHOLE POST.

But make AMBUSHING a scratch that requires a mark from at least two judges because the hunters that own these worthless hounds will hollor like you are removing their nads with a dull knife.

I was at the Boles Field hunt several years ago and myself and Robbie Arrington watched a gyp run away with the hunt in one day. There was lots of running with crossings between the gate and the old cabin and we(and the Master of Hounds), watched a gyp(that was from that area and had run in that pen all of her life) hit the road very often and just stand there long enough to listen to whatever pack was coming toward the road(not long enough to be scratched for loafing or failure to hark), then she would hit the woods, meet the pack and bring the game across the road first every time, that happened time and time again. She didn't win but she placed very high. The Master looked at Robbie and me and said, I saw the same thing you did but I also saw who crossed the road first. She didn't hit the pack in the road, she would just hit the road and quickly listen and then head the pack off in the woods quite a ways before they got to the road but she was truly "putting on a clinic", as her owner stated. I remember this vividly and have seen it many times since. Surely made for a tough call and tough situation to score.

im not a pen hunter, hunted all my life on the out side, cutting is something i cant stand he gotta go from my house he start that, but swinging is another thing, he gets behind or something snatches it out from under him , what ever he gotta do to get back on the front is the right thing to do, weather he gotta run the road bust the bushes or whatever i dont care as long as he gets back to the front. seen a many of hounds thats lazy, wont hunt, cant smell a hot bisquit,these need to be eliminated from ones pack, so many prople anymore all they breed for is speed, well thats fine if they can smell something but most of todays dogs just dont have no nose, some call them leaf flippers, well i have always known if u have no starter u have no race. i sure dont want to push my truck off everytime i want to ride, so whatever he gotta do to get to the front and hold it thats my hound, and as fred said standing there shaking, i say that one needs a claw hammer between the eyes