Mr. "Jaegers" a long time writer for the Chase, came up with an intersting scoring program for Field Trials in this mos. edition.
He was in favor of making S&D 300pts. instead of 100,for 1st place, 270pts instead of ninety for 2nd place, 3rd place 240 instead of 80 and so on.
This system would be used for hunts inside the pens, and 98% of Trials are inside the pens so it will be interesting to see how this develops.
I don't know why you just don't go GTP with the 10-20-30 endurance scores, but I must say, I do think he has an idea that would be a big improvement for National Rules inside the wire . Good Luck

I am not an expert on the rules but would this make

hunting and trailing hga almost irrelevant unless you

had a full class in each category?

I don't know why leaf blowing and trailing (to say the least) are still part of a scoring system in an enclosure with plenty of game.

Matt you and very many more wonder why???

This new proposal would would stop 90% of the cheating going on and improve the quality of hounds at the same time. The leaf blowers would become extinct, it is a WIN WIN NO BRAINER

If that's all you guys want why don't you just go to the drag strip. The best dog is a complete dog!!!!

There's no way I can prove it, or no way you can prove me wrong, But I believe if you could take a vote of every hunter that field trials, you would find that most are satisfied with the rules as they are. It's like with a lot of other things, those that are against speak up, those that are satisfied dont say anything, because they dont have to. I've noticed over the past few years that a lot of the ones who do the most complaining about the rules on here are selling out a few months later. With all that said, I realize everyone has a right to their opinion, including me.
God Bless
Bobby

A big AMEN on the complete dog.

Looks like the thing to do.Went to one this past week Hound that won S&D did not win.Everone to there own,I think a hound thats wins S&D should win.Good Hunting Larry

some of you need to go to horse racing and get out of dog hunting

Steve, I think the writer was wanting to move back to a system where the endurance comes from scoring in multiple categories which to me has always been the strength of the National HGA system. Even though "Endurance" the category didn't have anything to do with actual endurance in a hound, it was a good way to reward a hound that could score in multiple categories. If they would do as the writer said and bump the S&D points up to 200 or 300 for 1st place and then let the Endurance category go back to rewarding the "balanced" hound I think they would have a stronger set of HGA rules.
Of course, you are right that you can't beat a GTP system if it is weighted correctly. You look back at some old daily score sheets from National hunts when Endurance was tied to Hunting and Trailing and you will most likely agree that 1st place GTP is the MVP of the week, not the HGA winner. Sometimes the HGA winner is 1st place GTP but when they are not the same hound most hunters would pick the 1st place GTP as the hound to take home instead if 1st place HGA. It is true inside or outside the wire. Under old national rules, the first place GTP is always going to be one of the high scored S&D hounds. Sometimes it is a hound that got the 25% boost in Grand Total by getting either a Hunting or Trailing score. Sometimes it is a hound with nothing but straight S&D that outscored the others so badly that even the 25% boost they got from Endurance by getting the Hunting or Trailing is not enough to catch up with the 1st place S&D hound.
I think the National had a near perfect system already set up and all they had to do was rank the hounds by GTP and throw away the HGA. Maybe that would have been too easy.

It is funny to think it but except for the Trailing HGA points starting at 100, the National HGA is a more S&D based system than the Masters HGA is.

Some of you guys need to go to beagles and quit trying to make rabbit dogs out of hard driving tough hounds that can flat smoke you

Read this post and thought I was having a flash back from four or five years ago.

So to the gentlemen who are in favor of hounds that cant get in a wolfrace but would rather call people in favor of speed and drive whiners???this isnt rocket science dont get all hateful im repeating what has already been posted.you go to a field trial whether it be jena,la or creedmore,nc your hound or hounds blow up speed and drive and endurance but joe joe over there with less than 3 quarters of speed drive gets him a snot popping score with wall to wall running and beats your hounds???thats fair to you let alone your hound that just yanked collars off of joe joes hound???wake up you cant turn 300 head of hounds and tell me only 1 or multiple hounds deserve a hunting or trailing score in a preserve thats stocked.with flat out running and a complete hound??who doesnt want one but one that can get up under it and suck the wind out of it.steve i hope they can move in that direction the foxhunting community is changing and so should some of the rules.

Whatever the rules I will try to attend a hunt or so a year. But can that dog that drags Joe joes dog around for 2 days hunt and trail up a yote on the third day when dogs are tired and running is slim? Maybe hunting and trailing shouldnt count so much on day 1 and a little more on day 2 but maybe day 3 should count way more when that work horse is getting it all started. To each his own but every now and again I want my dogs to put the ole nose down because after all thats what they were born to do...hunt! There are several types of rules so go where you want to and hunt under the rules you like and dont attend the ones with the rules you dont like. We are all in this together as hunters and whether we like each others rules or not we should get along and not bash one another for the type of hunting or rules we like. Field trialing is fun and except for a few none of us are making a killing off of the money we make doing it. Most of us fork out money for a hobby we love and enjoy. If you want a straight up speed and drive hunt attend it and if you want an all around hunt attend the one with the rules you like. Have fun guys.

1 ~~ 1770 ~~ 76 ~~ Hoehner's Bold Ruler
2 ~~ 1765 ~~ 86 ~~ Parker's Bear
3 ~~ 1745 ~~ 45 ~~ Country Oaks Lightning H
4 ~~ 1665 ~~ 96 ~~ Ducote & Smith's Mighty Man
5 ~~ 1655 ~~ 30 ~~ Lakehills Ike
6 ~~ 1590 ~~ 129 ~~ Hoehner's Lil Fly H.
7 ~~ 1590 ~~ 776 ~~ Morris' Classy
8 ~~ 1585 ~~ 358 ~~ Ward's Toy
9 ~~ 1570 ~~ 52 ~~ Round Mtn Alvin
10 ~~ 1570 ~~ 735 ~~ Morrisons Hoosher
11 ~~ 1555 ~~ 27 ~~ Hoehner's Maria B.
12 ~~ 1535 ~~ 82 ~~ Country Oaks Maddie
13 ~~ 1480 ~~ 534 ~~ Atkins Big D
14 ~~ 1475 ~~ 111 ~~ Dry Branch 8 Ball
15 ~~ 1440 ~~ 89 ~~ Hoehner's Shane B
16 ~~ 1420 ~~ 771 ~~ Dry Branch Cain
17 ~~ 1415 ~~ 3 ~~ Triple Bridge Sherry
18 ~~ 1400 ~~ 53 ~~ JW's Classy
19 ~~ 1400 ~~ 411 ~~ Sullivan's Delta Dawn
20 ~~ 1400 ~~ 770 ~~ Bond's Wild Thing


Above is the top 20 S&D from a hunt at Creedmoor. If it had been an old National rules hunt but the winner was going to be picked by GTP then the lowest S&D hound that could win with a 10 point Hunting or Trailing score would be the 17th place S&D hound that scored 1415 in S&D. A hound that can score over 1400 points in S&D has to be a sure enough running hound. Add to that the fact that the hound did something worthy of being scored in Hunting and I think there would be a lot of hunters who would be glad to own that hound. It isn't what everybody is looking for but I bet it would be a good hound that would win that kind of hunt.
We are talking National rules now. I'm thinking about what might appeal to the hunters who prefer a hound that can get a Hunting score. I would just as soon win the S&D and forget the other categories but there are lots of hunters who want something more than just a S&D score to determine the best hound in the field.
Consider the fact that under current National rules a hound can get 1st place Hunting and 1st place Trailing and win a hunt with a very low S&D score while other hounds are scoring 1700 points in S&D. Then again, the folks going to the National affiliated hunts are probably satisfied with what they have now. I think a GTP system is better than an HGA in a lot of ways but everybody don't see it that way.

first i wanna say ive won a hunt under both national rules old and new lost a championship to a dog with a big hunting score and half the s&d score of my s&d winning hound the only hunt my hound didnt have a hunting score in ive won hunts with s&d only no hunting with full classes of hunting there is nothing wrong with the national rules as they are now in the pens these rules are more for the s&d hounds than the masters hga rules if all some hunters want is the s&d hounds to be the winners go to a all s&d hunt solvesall problems so in my opinion leave the rules as they are and happy trialing to all

Just my opinion but the problem with the hunting scores today is that most field trials don't have enough qualified judges to give a hunting score. It cost to much and to hard to find judges now days. A hunting score is 1 score from 1 judge where speed drive is a total of 30 to 60 from all judges. Some judges give hunting scores to any good looking dog that they see while others it takes an act of God to give a score. It's easy to say that judges should score by the rule book but that will never happen. That is the reason people like GTP because it takes the luck factor out of it and it cost to much to get hounds in shape to get beat by a hound that was 17th in speed and drive and went by 1 judge that gave it 1 score that overrode 60 scores from 20 judges. That being said there is enough hunts that people should be able to find one that they like. It does not mean 1 is better than the other just that there is different strokes for different folks. But the day people quit breeding for a complete hound the breed will suffer. Happy hunting and enjoy the type of hound You like because You are the 1 feeding it.
he

I THINK SO MANY TIMES GOOD JUDGES WILL NOT GIVE A HUNTING SCORE TO A HOUND BECAUSE IT COULD TURN THE HUNT TO THIS HOUND LIKE YALL ARE SAYING THIS IS WHY I LIKE THE GTP YOU CAN REWARD A HOUND FOR DOING A GOOD JOB IT TAKES A LOT OF PRESSER OFF YOUR JUDGE
(LORD KNOWS THEY ARE UNDER THE GUN)
WE ALL TALK ABOUT S+D ONE IS SPEED BUT THE OTHER IS DRIVE THE DRIVE PART IS OVER LOOKED

THINK OF WHAT IT TAKES TO DRIVE A CAR
SPEED
IT IS INPORTANT
BUT
THERE IS MORE TO IT

GOD BLESS AND HAPPY HUNTING

A big AMEN to "Brad" and Caveman.

Totally agree with Bradlow and Caveman. You guys hit the nail on the head. People work too hard to get beat by the lucky dog that went by the right judge.

You right A car had speed but without gas it stop same as dog without hunt it stop. God Bless

masters gtp inside the wire - mostly because of the way the endurance rewards a complete dog who can do it on day 2 and day 3

national hga on the outside - because thats where the rules were born and raised and perfected - not in the pen.

it aint hard , some people just want to make excuses

"Keep it Simple"

You can talk to people all over and they agree with you, everywhere you go, Nat'l rules on outside Masters rules inside, they all say then you have a chance to pick the best dog, at the two totally different types of hunts.
I think the Sport would kick back into overdrive when folks could go to hunts where the Rules fit the circumstances that a hunt is being held under. One set of rules was developed when hunting Red Fox in Ky. on horseback, the other for running inside the wire. If young hunters one day can meche these Rules, I think they will fix this divide that forever seperates hunters, I see more and more hunters leaning this way. I have hope that one day, the right rules will be in the right places, and the end result will be , a chance to pick the right Ch. at the type hunt this hound fits.

Like i said at the top, why do you need a hound to leaf blow and trail in a enclosure with plenty of game, full of game, or loaded with game? You turn 2 to 400 hounds loose and all they "have" to do is run around till they see a piece of game or come across a hot/warm track. Just that "simple". Easier on judges, may then be easier to get judges. Leave the trailing and leaf blowing to the outside. Have a set of rules for outside only and a set for inside only. Master's GTP has got my vote for the enclosure rules as of now. Done deal.

Mr.Matt u said it when u said a hound can run around a pen until he SEES a piece of game!!!! Thats why if a pen does not have game behind every bush and out in the roads people say there is no game in the pen....Because the majority of dogs can't hunt or trail there own game to run somthing today.That is what is wrong with this sport today!!!!! The answer is pens need to have game galore and all these dogs will have to do is run the game 100yrds get the front end, get scored,lose it run into another piece of game and on and on....Because 90% can't hunt and trail there own up so it has to come out and let them see it in the ROADS!!!!

As a hunter before I haul a hound to a 3 day they will hunt,trail and run a track and try for the front.But do they get seen doing this..not as much as I would like! As a judge I would fall under "act of god" on the hunting scores.If I do see a dog "hunting" chances are I can hear a screaming race somewhere at the same time. So I am very very careful on how I score one.S&D is a no brainer.Say I hear a race coming and a yote pops out in a dusty road and turns and runs down the road and ducks back the way he came,well then 3 hounds blow out across the road and look lost and the 4th spins on a dime and looks for it and finds it and saves the race. Well that was the spot I picked to judge the SD so dog 4 gets 1st SD and so on.Now some would say he should get a hunting,some would say he was doing what he was supposed to,and some would say the first three that popped out and lost the track should get the Sd.But giving a hunting score is almost like picking the winner of the hunt,so I would like to see it count just like a SD and not any more and judges could give them out easier.Everyone needs to bite the bullet and judge a couple hunts a year but beware it costs money,you have to find someone to take care of your hounds while you are gone and someone is going to hate you!P.S I have judged 4 this year and looks like I have 1 more, and I wanted to run in that one!

YOU FELLOWS MUST NOT HAVE BEEN TO A NATIONAL HUNT RUN UNDER THE NEW RULES LATELY BECAUSE A HUNTING SCORE WILL NOT WIN A HUNT FOR YOU IF YOU DONT HAVE A TOPS&D SCORE IVE SEEN FULL CLASSES OF HUNTING AND THOSE DOGS WERE MAYBE 7TH ON BACK IF THEY DIDNT GET IN S&D IVE WON HUNTS WITH S&D ONLY NO HUNTING 1ST S&D AND 1ST END BEAT OUT A FULL CLASS OF HUNTING SEEN IT DONE NUMOUROUS TIMES ALSO WON A HUNT WITH 4TH HUNTING AND 3RD S&D A REAL COMPLETE HOUND THANKS STEVE DUCOTE FOR SELLING ME CAJUN AS A PUP BUT IN MY UPPER POST ALSO LOST A CH BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE RULES USED TO BE