MONEY MONEY Is what happen.

ears will show u something, front legs also and up under the back ones and the tip of the tail !! But that aint always right, i hunt the outside, in the briars of south ga, in places so thick u cant **** a pistol in and i have see quite a very few that will dominat a outside fox or cat race and not have a hair out of place! when they get older that is, hounds of today are different people breed different for different things, me myself i wont have a road runner or a swinger , and hate one that snatches, i want one that can smell him, move his track , and not bog dow, and jump and run him and bark like u driving a hot rod up his hiney! in other words blowing his stack, i think theres still alot of fair hounds out there just knowing what to breed ur best female 2 ! but breeding is a funny thing everything dont always work, aint no telling how many i have owned, have been hunting with hounds for 40 years and i can count on 3 fingers the decent ones i have owned and seen, a good one 1 in a thousand in my book, a dog is a dog and he will lie and mess up, keep breeding and 1 might come ones way !

I was just thinking of some stuff and trying to find out a way to truly help out the fox hunting world and field trialing so it'll be done in a manner that the best hound would actually be chosen based on it's hunting performance instead of which one can catch front before it hits the road or catch front on the road. How would our field trial results differ if instead of judging from the roads the dogs were judged in the woods where the work is actually being done. And if you must judge from the road only score the hounds that come out where the fox or coyote came out and leave out in the same spot? Refuse to score a hound that comes running up the road, and don't score the hounds that come out 15-20 yards to the side of where the game came out. Now I know hounds can wind what they are running but they aren't winding it if they're running up wind. I know it sounds like more trouble, but wouldn't it be worth it to find out who the true champion is?

The problem aint the dogs and it aint the money its the hunter. Theres an old song if you cant love the one you want love the one your with. this being said if you aren't proud of your hounds you aren't going to hunt them rite and take care of them right. the money excuse is ****! the stud fee on the highest priced stud dogs is only 250 dollars. a bag of feed is 24 dollars wormer is 50 dollars. but a good gyp is priceless. Don't breed culls and expect to beat a man who is breeding good gyps. The old timers did not breed looking for a slow dog and the oldtimers will tell you the dogs of today are no faster than the dogs of the past. But if you are hunting in thick country do not go to a clear cut and expect too win the hunt. It may happen but chances are good you wont. Hunters have too be smarter than the dogs. And be proud of them or get rid of em.

The old timers did not necessarily breed for speed either. They bred for a well rounded off hound. One that had a great nose, good speed, tough as nails, and would run their game where it was. Not where the hound thought it was going. That's why I think by relocating where the judges judge you'll find the hounds that are hunting the game with the ability to hunt front in the woods, not the hounds that are hunting for the front with the ability to cut, pull, and snatch. As a result you would find a true quality hound champion. That would greatly reduce the number of actual culls winning, and placing in hunts I believe. If a hound is so great getting front on a road it shouldn't have a problem holding front in the woods if he is actually using his nose hunting the game. Wouldn't you think?

Totally agree. Yes I want my dog to be first but he better be on the track or I don't want him. I run mostly on the outside, those cutters and cheaters don't cut it. I want my dog to be able to hunt up game, trail it and then get his head up and drive it.

I've been blessed enough to have one of those hounds right now. Ran him all winter on the outside then placed him in a one day speed and drive trial in a pen when no one thought I had a chance. There isn't enough money to buy that hound from me.

Every once in a while when you get that one hound that can do it like he should, it makes every hour in the rain or snow or those 4 am alarms worth it.

The problem with most hounds and hunters today is, 90% of the hunters have never set and listened to an all night sure enough fox race !!!!! Now days
all most want to see is the first hound across the road are the high score on the board. I'm not saying that a lot of the hounds that win and place in hunt's are not good hounds, but some of these hunters can not even tell you their hounds mouth. As for as I'm concerned if you don't know your hounds mouth, you sure don't know what he is doing in the field. To each his own, you either want to listen to a good race, or you want your name called. Me, I like a good race first, but if I get my name called I know it aggravates a bunch of people, that's fun too.

In my opinion a walker should be able to do all three hunt, trail, and run. Once it is running if it is doing like a hound should do using its nose to run it shouldn't get slung out too often. A true champion should have the ability to relocate the scent it was after and get back up front in no time or close to the front using its nose and its ability to catch up with speed behind it. But still in the woods you would be able to more of what hounds are doing what. I say hunting the game cause that's exactly what he is doing it don't matter if he's nipping at its tail or 20 yards behind it, it's still considered hunting. I run my hounds religiously inside and outside the wire. I take pride in my hounds no matter how they score on a sheet of paper cause I know exactly what my hounds will do and how they run. I'm not bringing this up to find an easier way to get my hounds on top. I'm bringing this up to try to improve the quality of hounds that get in the top 10. Cause I see a lot of hounds at field trials I wouldn't give you a plugged nickle for. And when I go to a field trial I expect to run against peoples best of the best hounds, and if people knew the judges would be in the woods watching instead of on the road waiting then maybe they'll leave the cutters and road runners at the house and you'll see more quality hounds. That's what I call improving the sport!

THEY GET SCORED LIKE THIS!!!

1st=35
2nd=30
3rd=25
4th=20
5th=15

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO IT.IF YOU ARE A PLEASURE HUNTER OR OUTSIDE HUNTER THAT DOG IS STILL IMPORTANT.WE ARE HUNTING IN PENS THAT ARE 300 ACRES OR LESS FOR THE MOST PART.YOU DON'T NEED TO TRAIL & HUNT FOR GAME,IT'S EVERY WHERE.IN PENS THIS SMALL IT'S NOT THAT THE DOGS DON'T HAVE NOSES,THEY HAVE TO CUT & SWING TO RUN THE GAME.THAT IS JUST PEN HUNTING.IT'S JUST THAT SIMPLE.

IF YOU JUST PLEASURE HUNT @ NITE,YOUR DOGS ARE SWINGING & CUTTING TO.A GOOD DOG IS GOING TO RUN THE GAME,NOT FOLLOW THE LEADER.

Here is your answer. Not many dogs can do this but if a hound has the nose speed and.grit your talking about then he will run the game so close a swinger cant get inbetween them. Not being a smart butt just facts. Ive seen a few.

I have had the honor to judge a fair many hunts some would be considered to be big hunts. I have been fox hunting all of my life, my dad would take me when I was still in diapers. My brother gave me my first field trial hound when I was 13 years old, a bob tailed male off of J's Jitterbug. I cut my teeth on the outside but prefer the pen mainly because my hearing is so bad and it is easier for me to stay with the dogs and watch how they perform. I said all of that to say this, when I judge a hunt I always judge on my feet! This allows me the ability to really watch what the hounds are doing and hear the ones performing in the woods. When I score a crossing from the road I always go to where I first saw the game in the woods and score it there, this helps cut out the cutters. I have scored hunting a few times and trailing even fewer but I have never scored them from the road. The one thing I have noticed is a hound that has a good enough nose to allow him to run his game with speed and no misses will almost always be competitive. I'll give you two examples of how the best hound doesn't always when the hunt. I was judging a hunt and the last day the running had falling off and I heard a dog trailing about two hundred yards into the woods, by the time I got to it it was only hunting and not opening up anymore I then heard a pack coming from the other direction so I broke and ran to get the crossing and that same hound was second in the crossing. I got a better look at her after the hunt and she had the scares that told me briars and bushes ment nothing to her. She placed but didn't win. The second hunt was a big hunt and the high dog each day could not stay after his game. You could her the pack coming and he would put in 100 yards or so off the road and be the first dog in the crossing then shortly after the crossing you would see him come down the road. I quite scoring him about midway through the second day and shared my concern with other judges. They made him a champion and a lot of people breed to him but he never produced. With all this said I think most of the time it still takes the same kind of hound to place in a field trial but seldom does the best hound win.

Brandon I know how dogs score in each crossing, and the points they receive, and I know that in -300 acre pen there will be a lot of snatching and grabbing but in that pen no matter how big or small there is a few hounds that is doing it the right way. Gorock you are 100% right on the money those hounds are very few and far between, but I think instead of people trying to breed to have a hound like that, there are a lot of people that will breed to have a "pen wise" dog that will try its best to cut him off. Only because they are that few to find. Personally I think it's all in how you raise them. Hardly anybody trains pups on the outside anymore where they have to learn to hunt their game trail it, then run the fire out of it. From the first time pups are cast now days they have to cut immediately just to get in a race... skip the hunting and trailing part. And Mr Hunter and Judge. I don't know you, and you don't know me, but Awesome job on the way you judged. If those other judges would've done right they would have stopped scoring that dog too instead of crowning a dog champion they know good and well didn't earn it.

Now you are showing ignorance you should score the race the way it is if I knew hunter and judges name I would never go to a hunt he's judging in you don't get too decide what's rite or wrong the association does. If you want too judge in the woods on trailing and hunting buy a coon dog. There are all kinds of terrain in this country I live in wide open country but the difference is I'm not scarred to go to the thick parts but I don't try to change fox hunting too suite me if I don't win. The only answer you need is a good hound. And every dog has its day. I have been beat with a hunting score and led all3 days speed and drive and end up 2 nd hga now if you want too tell me I got beat try it... If a dog can't outrun me he can't beat me in my heart.

Gorock- Once you've had one, and know what one is really capable of doing , you will cull 1000 looking for another like it.

I like the way he judged it! That dog didn't deserve any points for cutting. Leave that trash at home. And like I said I'm not changing this to benefit me, but to find the best hound. Unless you have road runners and cutters you shouldn't see any problem with what I'm saying.

IN MY OPINION,IF YOU DID NOT SEE THE DOG CUT THE RACE,YOU SHOULD SCORE THE DOGS.DO WHAT EVER YOU FEEL IS RITE I GUESS,BUT THE WAY I SEE IT IS SCORE THE FIRST 5 DOGS IN A CROSSING.A HOUND SHOULD NOT GET REWARDED FOR PACK SCORES.

IF A HOUND CAN RUN HIS GAME & HAS ENOUGH BRAINS & SPEED TO RUN THE GAME,AT THE END OF THE DAY THE DOG THAT IS RUNNING THE GAME WILL STAND OUT.PEOPLE AMAZE ME TALKING ABOUT CUTTING & SWINGING.YOU HAVE 50 - 150 DOGS IN A PEN,WHAT IN THE HELL ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO?EVERY GOOD DOG HAS TO SWING.THERE AINT NO WAY AROUND IT.

MOST OF THE TIME FOR THE MOST PART,THE FASTEST TRACK RUNNIN DOG WILL BE THE ONE THAT WINS.THE REALLY ROAD RUNNERS MAY PLACE,BUT THEY DON'T WIN MOST OF THE TIME.

If he can't get it and run it he don't deserve it. Tired of seeing dogs run up down roads flanking dogs snatch it run it threw a block throw it away and then back on the road hunting another pack to cut off. The way he was talking about judging sounds find to me. If you hear the dog coming and walk off in woods and score him running instead of scoring the three dogs that were coming down road and cut in front dog 100 yards ahead of him what's the problem.

You got that right hank. Ive had about 4 of them kind since i was 14 years old. They arent born everyday my friend. Lord if i knew where one was id own it somehow buddy

Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt. Its good that this is a majority anonymous post.

My question in this totally ignorant discussion about pen dogs/trials is directed to Hunter and Judge...If you decided to pass judgement on the hound in question by quiting scoring it on the crossings that it had the front on, what did you do on those crossings with the second,third and subsequent hounds on the crossings? Surely you didn't score them as if the front hound wasn't there! I don't like cutty hounds but in a trial you can't become the sole judge and jury and just make out like the hound no longer desired scoring because you think he cut the pack 100 yards off the road. Obviously you should have just joined the gallery cause you don't know how any of the hounds got their position in the pack before any crossing. Hounds are constantly coming into races from all directions and as a judge one can only hope to score the front hounds at the point that he or she is looking at them and try to reward the points to the hounds(on game that you have actually seen) in the order you see them at that point of time (on roads,the woods , pastures, pipelines or whatever),not what you think happened!

The problem with some of the judges today , is the same as the hunters that don't know what their dog sounds like . They really don't know what the dogs are doing ! I've seen judges score a pack of hounds that he thought was running and the dogs that was actually running the game done be gone slam out of hearing. I've seen judges give a hunting score to a dog that was looking for a place to lay down ! I've seen judges scratch dogs for traveling up a road going to race . I've seen judges scratch dogs for stopping to get water out of a mud hole , and then get back in a race ! I've seen judges score dogs for trailing , that actually was trying to run a covered track that the race had been gone for fifteen minutes ! I've judged a lot of hunts , and I think every hunter should judges regularly and every judge should own a pack of hounds and hunt regularly ! I ain't never gonna score a dog that I know cut a race and then throwed the track down and I'm never gonna give a dog hunting score that can't jump it's game or get in a strong race .
If you really want to know what your feeding load em up and take em hunting one at a time turn em loose by their selves , in the pen or on the outside and see if it can find something to run and put pressure on it all night !!

In the end , it's totally up to the field judge anyhow ! It's the opinion of that judge looking at the dogs and nothing else ! All they can do , is what they think is right , scoring or not scoring , scratching or not scratching . Everybody that's ever put on a hunt knows how hard it is to get good judges . Down here in northwest Florida , we got several ! But it's hard to get away from home !

A JUDGE IS TOO SCORE A CROSSING THE WAY IT CROSSES. A ROAD RUNNING DOG WILL NOT GET SCORRED FOR COMING UP THE ROAD AND CUTTING IN ON A RACE BUT IF HE PICKS IT UP AND RUNS IT ACROSS THE NEXT ROAD IT SHOULD BE SCORED. THE PROBLEM WITH THIS IS WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE JUDGES RESPONDING TO THIS THAT DONT EVER NEED TO JUDGE A HUNT. i PERSONALLY FEEL LIKE THIS IF MY DOG CROSSES A ROAD FIRST ON THE GAME AND YOU DONT SCORE HIM YOU HAD BETTER NOT LET ME FIND OUT. BECAUSE YOU ARE A CHEATER THAT NEEDS TOO BE BANNED. AND THERE WILL PROBABLY BE WORDS ABOUT IT.

A judge is supposed to "judge" the hounds, you must be thinking of a "score taker". A good judge will know what he is doin and what a hound is doin. That's why we trust them to judge and pick the best hound in the field. Not just the one that crosses the roAd first.

A real hunter or judge would know what dogs was really running the game if they hear a pack coming you know what them dogs sound like.. Then when you all of a sudden hear a new mouth just" fall out a tree" then you know that that is the snatch and grab dogs... Bc the real dogs would still be running with the same mouths and never miss a beat even if the one that falls "out of the tree" crosses first.. U score the pack not the snatcher... That's how you know what dogs are doing there job. A track running dog will be running barking every breath, and the snatchers will just "fall out of a tree" and start barking....

The real good hounds will shut up and cover that cutter before he or she knows what happened. If they don't then what are they really running dog tracks or real game???? Common sense prevails when judging over making assumptions or guess work in my opinion.

If you don't score the hound that you assume cut the pack then how in all honesty. could you even score any hounds on that particular crossing.The next hound behind the accused hound should not be awarded a first place crossing because he/she just might be trying to catch the front runner at that crossing. If you are trying to pick the best hound on the ground then it isn't an opinion poll in the judges room, the winning hound is the one with the highest score.

I agree Solomon was a VERY Wise man

MOST SHATCH AND GRAB DOGS CANT RUN THIER GAME BY THEIR SELF ON THE OUTSIDE AND PUT PRESSURE ON IT. AS FOR CUTTING IN THE PENS IF THERE WAS LESS GAME THE DOGS WOULD HAVE TO PACK UP. MOST PENS HAVE ENOUGH GAME THAT THERE IS A RACE COMING TO THE SNATCH AND GRAB DOGS MOST OF THE TIME. LESS GAME FEWER CHANCES FOR THEM TO GRAB IT. HOW CAN YOU REALLY FIND THE FASTEST DOG THAT DAY WHEN YOU HAVE 10 PLUS RACES GOING ON AT ONCE. I RUN ON THE OUTSIDE AND EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE IN A PEN. I BOUGHT A GYP THAT HAD WON MANY PUPPY HUNTS THAT COULDNT GET IN A RACE ON THE OUTSIDE. FEED WHAT YOU LIKE AND DONT WORRY ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE.

Looking Back, first you should post your name. If you hear a pack of hounds coming & a hound is going to the race when he gets there he's got to cut to get in the race, he's not going to let every hound go by then get in the race. So some point & time in a field trial every dog has cut.

Darren Robertson said it best, feed what suits you best.

Look at the hounds that win the National or the USO. These are not the same blood lines you see in pen hunts. There is a reason for that.

At the end of the day, if you run only in a pen and trial only in a pen then that is what makes you happy. If you run on the outside, same thing.

Most of us I believe are looking for the best all around hound, not just the fastest or the best nose.

Feed the hounds that make you happy and don't worry about what anyone else thinks.

Every dog at some point will gain position, it's what they are bred to do. You cannot just ignore a dog because u heard them put in ahead. If you feel they dont deserve the 35 pts for first, score it as 2 crossings where as the " cutter" receives a 20 pt running alone score and the rest of the pack scored according to order in which they crossed. This ain't rocket science, a foxhound in a field trial should be hunting, trailing, speeding and driving or harking. They also can be scratched for actions deemed unbecoming a field champion. Those hounds who CONSTANTLY stay in the road ambushing races are in fact loafing. It's much harder to stay in a race and run it than staying in the road. Elimination is the key. Most folks don't want a hound scratched at all, that's the problem they should've never been entered. Some of the great ones have a bad day or an off time and are eliminated from time to time. Hunt hard, cull harder!!

I want one of those speeding and driving dogs Chip. Never had one scored for speeding might get a ticket! Just kidding would be nice though.

A good set of ears will teach you nore about your dogs than 4 sets of eyes. Usually the best field trial dogs arent your best dogs. They are the smarter dogs. How many times have yall seen a dog dominate 20 head but cant buy s top ten finish. Most of the strongest running hounds mentally cant take the big crowd. They wanta dominate! Most exceptional field trial dogs dont pay it no attention. The best trial dogs i ever saw was slide and howards maggie. Both would be in a pack if 8-10 dogs just running it like a clock. The other dogs killing themselves teying to work them big packs didnt score much and could hardly cast the next day. Brains beat athleticism everytime. Maggie would not let dogs cut all over her and fight with them. She got sonething she could handle and just cruised to victory. But pleasure hunting she was just an average dog. Paint a number in her and she came alive! I ran with her a many times. Just call norman howard he will yell u. You got field trial dogs and pleasure dogs and rarely is one both!