John, I started running dogs for fun in 1959. I really can't see any difference in the dogs I had then and the ones I have now. I had more that didn't pan out then and I have the same thing now 50+years later. The thing I see a big difference now is we have much more game to run than we haver had. I have hunted all week driving dogs in the early 60s and never have a really good race. Very seldom see a deer.we Had no coyote and a few fox. We had to have dogs that could start from scratch from what few tracks we could find, they were mostly running dog/tree dog cross. For some reason the red tick/running dog did best for us. Even back then the pure running dog wasn't the best all around dog. The running dog was ok after the 50/50 dog brought the track up to the jump, but we couldn't feed extra dogs just to run, they had to contribute more than that . I hunted with other people sometimes that had all running dogs and they could find game but most of the time they were out of hearing when they jumped. We had no tracking collars and that was very tough hunting. Yesterday I stood watching my dogs trailing a deer and listening to 3 more different races going on on our 4000 acre cutover. They could have been running deer,coyote,fox,cat,coon, armadillo, or wild hog. And I can do that 365 day of the year if I want to. What I'm saying is my dogs have a lot more opportunity to shine now than they did then. A lot more game to run makes better dogs. I remember a few dog I had then that I wish they would had the chance to hunt today

There is a great difference in noses on hounds and the ability to move a cold track , During deer season we always notice the deer hounds with tree stock in them opening way before the running dogs open and you can watch them on the Garmin or get in the brush with them. Sometimes it is several mins before a running dog will go to opening on the same track and it's not always a deer these tree dogs run yotes to.

I believe you Derek, but that has not always been true, back in the 70s I had a truck load of liquor, Yazoo, hill bred stuf that could cold trail a deer just as good as the tree dogs and when they jumped it leave the tree dogs in the dust. The last 13 years have had to depend on a treeing walker to start cold tracks from the road.
I have some deer dogs but am mostly a fox hunter, have some hounds that will run nothing but fox, and a bobcat when I can find one.
I track hunt a lot for fox and cat because both are scarce where I can hunt (it's the fastest way to have a race here) but it is unbelievable to me how hard it has been to find hounds now a days that can trail a relatively fresh track from the road and put it to running.
I'm sure for the pen hunters the hounds are better today for what y'all do but they ain't for what I do, fox hunt in the wild. I know a lot of you can't hunt in the wild and I barely can but I am going to keep hammering at it as long as I have a place I can turn one loose. When I can't do that anymore I'll just run rabbits with beagles, that's fun too when you have a half dozen old retired fox hunters to run with.

Blain, I would like to only run cat and fox but I can't keep mine straight. I can correct them till they want run anything.i have dogs that will road, box and cast (same dogs) unless you see a track you never know what they are going down on. Iv had them box turkey and run them till they flew. A covey of quail crossed the road other day and the box exploded. They run fox and cat as well as anything so when they strike I turn them out and hope for the best. With the number of deer and coyote being probably 50 times more than cat and fox you can figure what I'm running most. I forgot coon, probably have more coon than anything. I have more 10 minute red hot races that end like you flip a switch. I could say that cat sure treed quick but I never could fool myself. Everybody that's going to show me how to catch a cat does the same thing I'm doing when they get here?????????

Pulpwood, I understand 100%, I have hunted most my life with hounds that cast and don't know what they are running until it's to late to stop them and the dogs know what you are disciplining for. I decided a while back I wanted broke fox dogs, I can not take credit for how clean my dogs are, I was blessed by a gift from a man of a dog that roads, handles great and will not run anything but a fox or cat, if another dog wrings its tail real hard on trash she will hang her head and just watch them if they open she comes gets in the truck fast, because of her I can correct them as soon as they think trash. It don't take but a couple of times for them to ignore the trash. This morning at 4 o'clock I stopped the truck to put the dogs down and 2 deer walked across the road in the headlights while I was turning them out, they roaded right past them standing in the cut 30 yds off the road, 200 yds on down the road struck a fox and had a 4 hour fox race. Yes I still got out and found the track to make sure, saw the fox cross the road several times after daylight. There is also 50 deer and coyotes to every fox here, just since I've had these dogs I haven't had a problem with them.
Now several opened and they all acted real interested right after dark one night where some turkeys had walked, but they are not a problem because I hunt at night but if we road up on a possum or skunk in the road it gets shook, one is more irritating than the other.
I try not to tempt them by running with others who have known deer/coyote runners.
I also have some deer hounds and like yours they will run turkeys, I don't know how to stop them, it's over before I know what they've done.
I hope you don't think I am bragging about anything, I am just appreciative of the gift the man gave me and the enjoyment I am having with the hounds she has helped train. They are nothing special just some dogs that can barely run a fox. The old dog can trail pretty good, haven't found another with the nose and trailing ability of hounds I've owned in the past, that's the only reason I've commented on this post. Sorry if I've helped get it off topic.

Blane I thimk I'm jinxed when it comes to breaking dogs. For some reason I ruin them completely.

I hunt on outside.There are some fox on the pine company we hunt on.I bought some hounds that had placed in pens for a big price thinking I could enjoy running popular bloodlines.They did not try to hunt,could not stay in race,cared less about jumping a fox.I am not mentioning breeding but I will say its always at the top.Glad I kept some old local stock or I would be without on the outside running these gray fox .

I would bet that if you bought the popular bloodlines as unstarted puppies and trained them like you hunt then they would have done fine. Not to say the field trial bloodlines are as good or better because they have been bred for a specific purpose that is different than outside hunting but I believe most of the way a hound acts as far as if he hunts and runs his own game has alot to do with how that hound was trained.

Heath I agree with you 100 percent you hit the nail on the head.

Mr. Pulpwood I know hunters know the difference in pen dogs and outside dogs to.I ain't just starting.

There is a difference in a name and a no name to just for your info.

Billy, I have a female that was like that , started running her with walker/beagle mix and she now is usually Second or third on a crossing and contributes a lot to picking up checks. Before she was swinging and and having to hustle to get back in place. it took her several months to get right.. She will take over the race after about 5 hrs but usually won't run but about 10 yds ahead. She learned what happens if she gets to far out fronts and swings the wrong way. If I would have started her with the dogs I have now she probably would have been ok from the start. You are right, best to start them with dogs that are right for you.

Heath, l tried that experiment, it didn't work good for me, unlike Billy's experience mine was hunting machines but hunted in a straight line and was out of hearing of myself and each other when they jumped. I was using them for deer hunting and nearly always had 3-4 one dog races going at same time in different direction. If I hadn't had telemetry l'd never kept up with any of them. None of them could trail a track from the road, if I heard them bark they were running. If you turned the deer back at a road a lot of times they'd lose it and never pick it back up. My opinion they had no nose.
I had 4, 3 out of the same litter so it may have been just my bad luck. Surprisingly they were excellent homers, got out of beeper range many times and couldn't find them, they always came back to where I turned them out.

It takes a hound that will hunt close to were cast were we hunt.We put them near the fox sign.I don't know much but I think its in their breeding to hunt and jump a gray.Some may can but don't want too maybe.Maybe the above post is right that blood is blood and its the trainer.Just not my experience with fox.

Mr hooper, I have had the same experience with pen bread dogs hunting them on outside. I had a hellems bread hound, placed in trailing and hunting in several different hunts. I could put him in the rd with dogs working a fox ahead of the truck and the dog act like he never smell it. That's not the only time I've seen that,ive also tried starting them from pup's and it still did not work. Just wasn't enough noise also seen my broke dogs not cover unbroke dog's. Idk how they know but they do. I'm not knocking nobody dogs but I don't believe hounds have the noise they had 20 years ago, heck not even 10 years ago. I also believe dogs that can't smell will not be able to run the front and hold it unless site running in a small pen. Ppl can make up different situations and try and explain it in all these sophisticated worded post but the bottom line is a fox dog with no noise is a sorry dog. Plain and simple. Have good day and happy hunting

How many out there still trying to hunt and run fox on the outside? Not deer hunt part time ,but true fox hunting.

I deer hunt part time, BUT NOT with the same hounds I fox hunt with. Does that disqualify me as a fox hunter? I get mighty run down during deer season, running deer dogs in the day with my sons and then fox hunting most of the night. Glad deer season is over, I'm putting a little weight back on and now I can hunt all night.

nose is in the breeding, but even some full mates have a better nose than the rest of the litter. most of the time more nose means less speed. the trick is to breed cold nose tough gyps to high headed leggy males with speed. the one with nose, speed and endurance is called a freak, when in truth it was the result of a successful combination of traits

To guess at the number of outside foxhunters left in the country, would I be bad off the number to say 100 foxhuntes?The kind that don't buy a big game stamp and make more coffee at midnight .My how this nation has re made itself.