Today I got a call from an old friend---It took me back to the days of National Rules and All American field trials---We had a nice visit---He hit me with a new idea and folks I like the idea---Here it is---

"Give each Masters Affiliated Association the option (under GTP or HGA) to choose wheather to use the two judge scratch rule or to use the one judge scratch rule"---I can't see that this would hurt anything---I have always been in favor of letting people have what they want---The hunters pay the bills---I've been on both ends---As a hunter I like the two judge scratch rule and as a judge I also like the two judge scratch rule but if you don't like the rule then you certainly should have the right to decide how to run your hunt---Once again I say this, "I wish I could claim this idea as mine"---

Hill City lets make a bet---I've got $50.00 that says this will pass---I need to get even with you---You skinned my tail last time around---

Good idea. Let the people choose how they want to run their trial. It never made sense to me that everybody from Texas to Virginia was supposed to use one exact set of rules without any deviation.

sounds like some By-partisan politics someone must have crossed the isle but I sure like the idea

Will it be simple majority or 2/3 of the vote to pass?

OK I WILL GIVE AN OPINION, WE HAVE ENOUGH OPTIONS IN THE MASTERS TODAY, IF I COULD DO IT THE WAY I WANT THERE WOULDNT BE A BUFFET OF OPTIONS, THERE WOULD BE AT THE MOST 2 STANDARDS FOX PEN RULES OR OUTSIDE RULES.

HERE IS MY THINKING ON THIS CURRENT IDEA.

WHEN A HOUND SAYS MASTERS CHAMPION BESIDES IT THERE COULD BE A MULTIPLE OF SCENARIOS TO DECIDE HOW THE HOUND WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP.

2ND - THE HUNTERS WANT THIS, THEY PROVED IT 2 YEARS IN A ROW WITH A 80% TO 20%.....

I HAVE BEEN ASKED BY A HUNTER/JUDGE IF THEY COULD HAVE THIS OPTION, BECAUSE THEY WILL NEVER RUN A MASTERS HUNT WITH THIS RULE AND THEY ARE FED UP WITH THE NATIONAL RULES FOR NOT CHAGING ENDURACE.....

FRED - WE GOT SOMETHING GOOD GOING ON AND I REALIZE YOU WANT TO PLEASE EVERYONE BUT MY FRIEND THAT WONT EVER HAPPEN.

WE HAVE 2 MANY OPTIONS TODAY AND THE AVERAGE HUNTER COULD NOT EVEN TELL YOU ALL THE OPTIONS I SURE CANT PLEASE HUNTERS LETS QUITE MUDDING THE WATERS AND HAVE A CLEAR CUT STANDARD FOR ALL HUNTS TO FOLLOW ACROSS OUR COUNTRY WHEN I SEE TX (F) CHAMPION I WANT IT TO MEAN THE SAME AS VA(F) CHAMPION, I DONT WANT TO BE DESCPIPHERING WAS THAT CHAMPION IN A GTP OR HGA WAS IT GTP 5 MIN INTERVALS OR 10 MINUTE INTERVALS, DID THEY USE 2 SCRATCH BARKING RULES, AND 5 MIN GTP OR WAS IT HGA......

JUST MY OPINION

BE GOOD

LENNY

Do they mail out ballots to the Memberships that can't make it to the actual Masters field trial for the meeting? I feel all members should be allowed to vote, not just the ones that were fortunate enough to be off and able to go. I would've loved to have been to the last 2 masters field trials but work wouldn't permit. I didn't get to vote an a rule that has affected me in a negative way on more than one occasion.

Lenny, I agree.
Can't please everyone, and when you try you sometimes upset the majority of the supporters.
Upset 100 to please 20

Lenny as I haved always said you are a shinning star in our sport. As long as you and some of the other young guns are around I feel good about the futher. You are right you can't please everyone and you shouldn't try. I run into this every hunt with the SRHA and my answer is we will listen and consider, but our rules are our rules, and if they don't work for you, feel free to go where the rules suite you. Better yet start your own association !

The bottom line is go to the hunts that most suite you, and if there is something you don't like get involved and try to help. I promise that I listen a whole lot more to someone thats working with me then someone thats working against me.

Fred you so funny! Like I will bet you on anything you can twist around to suit you best. I told Larry Tomlin exactly what lenny posted tonight before I ever read lenny's post! But whatever you guys want to do is cool, hell the only sure thing with the masters is that, nothing stays the same ! Not the rules, the place of the hunts, the scoring system, the scratch rules, the money payback, the weight points for winning nothing. The only thing that I see that stays the same is the people making money off it. You right the hunters pay the bills and let them decide what they want. Since I am not going to be there I have no care or vote on this matter. I think you guys should just let any hunt affliate with the masters, pay there dues and give them a CH ! No matter 3 day 2 day one night hunt whatever crown them all CH! It would make alot more money for the masters to divy up wouldn't it. I bet alot of these one nite hunts around my house would join up with you guys if you did it!
I also had somone tell me that you said "That you wanted to loose that bet to me on the all american and did so on purpose". Supposidly it was a master plot from you, b c you wanted picayune all to the masters and the all american not to go there, so you supposidly threw the bet to some how in a strange way lure the all american to harrisville with our $50 bet. Now fred let me ask you, did you or did you not think you would win our bet when we made the deal? The masters nor the all american is in picayune this yr, so you couldn't have won any kinda way.
I don't care what they vote on at the masters on all the rules, I am much more interested in how many shares of masters stock you still got outstanding?
Fred I gotta admitt, man you are one sharp pencil! very very clever. But no bet for me on this, I like the odds in my favor when I bet and right now you are holding the ball not me, so geddy up fred and all I can say is " Sell them whatever they want to buy from you"!
hill city
have a safe ride east to pamplico fred

Hill City---

We should be big buddies as I make you laugh and you make me laugh, however I think you might be smelling to many fumes from the paint---So you think I'm making money out of the Masters---Surely you are smarter than that---Yes, I was trying to sucker punch you on the second bet and you would have been pretty far out in left field had you jumped on it---Heck, Hill City I was just trying to get even---On the source for our first bet, well whom ever they are, they told you right---Of course I was the big looser in the end but if the pen had been ready for us it would have been worth $50.00 for the All American to not go to Picayune one month before the Masters---Don't you agree---I never once gave consideration on who would win the bet---

I will agree with one thing you said---I am for change; constructive change---Change is what the Masters was built on---I tried for years to get the National Powers to listen to me and the most honest answer I ever got was, "It's been this way for a hundred years and it can go for a hundred more."---My goodness, what a bright statement to make. For the record I am for the two judge scratch rule. The good far out weighs the bad---Hill City we will never see a time when a fair sampling of hunters from all states will gather at the Masters to vote---Do you think less than 50 votes at Ellsinore, Missouri or about 110 votes at Marianna, Florida is truly all that is needed to say the rule should stand forever---I sure don't---I say, had anyone thought to make a motion to let the associations make their on choices it would have passed---Do you honestly think the average opinion of what constitutes a good hound is consistent from Texas to South Carolina---I don't---Then there are folks like you that want to bash us for changing to often and making so many options no one really knows what the choices are---Are their really foxhunters that can’t read---Do you have any idea how I could slam the National if I really wanted to---Why is it so important for you to take cheep shots---Some day you will grow up and you will learn all that stuff is not necessary---I hope I live long enough to see that day---

Looking back I am proud I made the decision to start the Masters---The Masters is growing and nothing can stop it short of an outright ban for all pen field trials---To be honest the effort has far exceeded my expectations---I am very proud of our accomplishments in just eleven years---I'll say it again the Masters is only eleven years old---Surely we are allowed a little more time than that before we begin to think we can go a hundred years without change---Our computer program gets changed when the need arises---It will always be a work in progress---

Now why don't you soft soap your little pee picking heart and come to Pamplico---You say you like competition and I believe you do---Think about it Hill City, hunters want to win hunts where their hounds are worth a lot of money---That is where the toughest competition will always gather and it's a fact more folks want to run for the win than hunt or trail for the win---If you could have seen the excitement at Creedmoor last year you would have been like all the rest of us, impressed---6,800 scores on day one, 6,800 on day two and 3,800 on day three---Now tell me have you ever run in a field trial like that---Over 400,000 points---

You've got some goofy stuff in this reply but I'm not a bit mad at you---Keep firing away and maybe we both can continue to laugh---Oh by the way, I'll buy your supper and a membership card if you will only show up---The Hall of Fame, HOY, SOY is pretty neat---You would like that, I think---

What we all should be concerned about is the important matters at hand---We are in a battle that we must win---If we loose there will be no need for either rule book---Think about that---

So b c I don't support the masters, I think you are all about making money from this, and I wasn't at the masters in creedmoore to hug all my fellow hunters I am the one that needs to grow up? Fred maybe I will grow old enough one day to see the light turn on to you that even some of the masters past presidents are telling you to stop all these wind blowing changes, stop messing with it! Fred you act like because it was the masters at creedmoore is why you had all those points and big scores! Fred let me turn on this light for you, ITS that way every weekend there. I just went to a oneday hunt there 2 weeks ago and mastered it! They had oneday dogs entered scored 124,130 pts on day one with half the size entry as your superb masters did1 Guess what they also paid back a whole lot more money then the masters did. Plain and simple the masters will change its rules when the wind blows, when you have a hunt, and the winner is picked, all the loosers huff and puff and blow till the rules change for them at the next hunt. remember this fred, You are the one that posted my name on here on this thread wanting a reply out me. i gave one and got the longest single post reply to mine i ever seen you write on this board. You posted my name wanting input. You got it, now hope we are still buddies and can hug at the next hunt we see each other! come on out to the va st this fall fred i will buy you breakfast!
hill city
PS you never did tell me how many shares you have sold???

Maybe someone can post the point totals from a 3-day hunt that had more scoring than the Masters at Creedmoor.
Now, I don't know much but I wager that if you took 337 Virginia snot poppers and set them down at that location with the same circumstances you would not have the scores that the Masters put up. Not trying to knock VA, we got slow dogs in every state. What I'm driving at is those scores go higher when you have quality hounds in the field. I know the pen is the most important part and the judges too but holding those variables constant you get higher scores with better running hounds.
Take this one to the bank, you will not see foxhounds moving faster than the ones you will see at the Masters. It is like everybody brings their 3 hour S&D hounds and then the hunt lasts three days and the hounds maintain the pressure for three days too.

No, that wasn't a kick in the balls to VA at all,
That's funny.

Hunters, I just realized we have been doing this all wrong. Back through the years when Ducote and myself and others would debate foxhunting ideas I thought we were supposed to take our personal experiences and our knowledge of running hounds and our understanding of what is vaulable in a hound and use that to inform our decisions about whether an idea was good or bad. You know, ask questions like, will this help us pick a better foxhound as the winner of our trials. Is it going to give us a winner that can compete on a regular basis on the running grounds where we hunt.

Well as it turns out we should have just picked up the National rule book and let it tell us what a foxhound is supposed to be. We should have looked at the Champions of National hunts and set our sites on a hound that can win by those rules. It worked in 1920 so it ought to work in 2019, right?
Forget everything you thought you knew about a foxhound and breed to the standard of that National rule book. Make sure you train your hounds to get plenty of Trailing. That is a very important trait for trials at Pamplico and Creedmoor according to the standard. Just follow that little old book and you will have a kennel full of foxhounds you can be proud of.

Why argue need both associations anyway when dogs get too slow for Masters hunts you can hunt them in National Hunts. It works well been doing it for years and get to use your dogs longer. Just need to enjoy both.

Hill City---

I am very much aware of how the hunts go at Creedmoor---I'm not saying that the Masters was the best hunt ever run there, I'm saying the 2009 Masters was the best pen hunt with the highest level of competition I ever attended---What is the best pen hunt you ever attended---What is the best outside hunt you ever attended---Look, I know you've got a burr under your blanket---I have no idea why but if you wanted me to know you would tell me---It's looks like you are gonna keep hammering away and who am I to try to stop you---I think you have tunnel vision---I wish you could see the big picture---Maybe something has you worried---

Tell me this, what would you say if the Masters eliminated several options and choices---Would you have anything nice to say about the Masters then---Be honest---I would expect to hear, "Look at'em, changing again". Which is better Hill City, change with the times or stick your head under a rock---What would happen if Wal-Mart only sold green shirts---What would have happened if the St. Louis Cardinals had said, "We don't need to sign him, over 1,200 other players were drafted ahead this JUCO kid named Albert Pujols"---

Yes, I did put your name in this post---Do you have any idea why---

what i have no idea about is why you won't answer the question ! How many share have you sold in masters stock??? thats the question i want then i will answer yours1 now geddy up to the answer!
hill city

Virginia snot popper that is priceless

I am sure glad alot of things have changed sence 1920,change for the most part is good.

David---

Give your proxy to someone who will be attending the Masters and they in turn can vote your shares---

Lenny---

Do you feel better after our talk---I feel much better---

Hill City---

How many houses have you painted---I tell you what, you get me list of all the stockholders and how many shares each own in the Chase Publishing Co. and I will send you a list of stockholders in the Masters---

so plain and simple you don't want to talk about the money you have made from the masters? ok another question what was the last yr you paid your own expences to attend the masters and you paid a entry fee and ran a dog in the hunt?
hill city
ps fred remember we are friends and I am willing to hug and take pictures the next time we see each other ! Disagree doesn't mean dislike right??
hill city

jUST SEND EACH OTHER A BALANCE SHEET ON ONE ANOTHER AND THIS DISCUSSION IS PROBABLY HISTORY HECK POST IT FOR US TO SEE, GOT TWO WEDDINGS 3 MOS APART COULD USE A LITTLE LOAN IF YOU'LL NOT TO HIGH ON INTERST RATES

Kinda what's wrong with our country, everybody point's out the problem's but nobody willing to work together to get something done. What's amazing most people want the same thing just can't agree on how to get there!

Ok I will try and respond to Chris and David and Heath in one post.

1st Chris Hill City - Yes Fred owns majoririty of the Stock, notw he normally proxy's his votes to a few folks like steve or charles or even me one time to vote his shares or at other times he doesnt vote with his shares.

2nd David Bonner - Normally I have not seen were the memebership can mail in votes to be counted at a membership meeting, now anything the memebership votes has to be approved by the stock holders and this is usually mailed out although we have had a stock holder meeting at hunts to approve or not approve of changes recomended by the membership.

3rd Heath Howell - I hear you arguement about CH doesnt mean CH and I personally disagree, I have had 11 field champion titles, it means aslot to me and it does to the folks who win them, it looks good in pedogrees especially years down the road when it shows up in the 3rd and 4th generations of pedigrees.
Now you are correct you never know how they won the hunt sd only trailing, but in National hunts I do know the hound must have endurance and there has to be over 50 hounds in the class, I also know they need were scored in 10 minute intervals for SD I know they were going under a set of rules thet have one judge scratch, Now I agree I dont know all the scenarios about wheather , etc But I do know the basic foundation to win and be crowned a champion. I can say the exact same when there was only HGA rules in masters when they won a field trial and had CH by it I know the basic consept of what they had to do to win the hunt. I agree folks should research there breeding program and not nexesary breed to champions, I personally prefer to breed to a champion, take a champion gyp and breed her to a champion stud and have more champions....it looks good in pedigrees and it does mean somthging to folks who have them.

Be good

Lenny

Fred I do feel better after our talk, you said you thought about what I said yesterday and agreed on some of it, I do the same thing when folks at work have an idea I might not origianlly like it but after I sleep in it it grows on me.

Lenny

I have read some of the post in this thread and they are off topic, I called Fred yesterday and spoke about this and I believe he could tell I was hot about it......

1st off I am in favor of change if it is what is needed and will improve a process.

I was one of the 1st supporters of the masters several years ago when it was new and fresh, after reading the 1st set of masters HGA rules I really liked the idea of how masters figured HGA rules, I went on to promote the masters and assist with bringing them to the east coast and to date they have been super successfull in SC. When I 1st started promoting I liked this rule book I never imagined the avalanch of change that would follow to the point I personally think has gooten way off base from a standard to measure hound in a fox pen enclosure.
I am a stock holder I didnt vote on any of the changes when it came to a multiple of options for GTPs, intervals ETC.

I personally hope this doesnt pass along with anything else to muddy the waters, and I can read.

The good thing is we now have a choice in what we do and promote and like I have heard many folks say over the years if you dont like it dont do it.

I want to pleade with the othr shareholders who will vote on this change, do not continue to change rules for every idea that pops up, dont think for a second that if some National assocviations say if you put in this change we will come and affiliate with the Masters, because I assure you after the National modifies there rule book they will drop us like a hot potato, the folks who run National Hunts today and prefer them are folks who register there hounds in the Chase magazine, and they will continue to do that unless Terry purchases the stud book and combines them and they will run in affiliated hunts that will be recognized in the registry they have there hounds registered under.

Change is good I really believe that constant change could be horrific as no one will ever know what we really are about other than constant change.

Be good

See you all in Pamplico for the Masters 2010

Lenny

Lenny I hear that fred still holds 51% of voting shares in the masters. Is that true as you know it? If so anything you want or don't want is useless! He can make the rules as he wants them if he chooses to do so! now does fred hold 51% or not. I seem to always get a personial responces on my posts from fred right up to the point we talk about money and stock he has or has recieved from his idea of masterfox.
it could all be a BIG ponzi scheme, like madoff lol. You do know that Mr. Bernie Madoff is currently knled in Butner, NC! Thats in same town that the motels everyone stayed in at last yr's masters and fred said was the greatest hunt ever held! He was sleeping close to bernie weather he knew it or not!

I hear this argument about wanting a CH to mean the same thing from one hunt to the next so when you look at a pedigree and see that CH you can feel like you know something about the hound, that it was a good one and it is good that the CH blood is in the hounds you have. I think if we are honest with ourselves we know there isn't any consistency from one CH to the next even with one set of uniform rules.
Looking at that CH you don't know how it was won, what the conditions were like, was there any running, did the hound win with S&D or with Trailing, was the hunt in a pen or in the wild, did some scores get turned in on deer crossings, etc.
The way we know these things is by learning about the hunts that these CH's represent. We read the articles in the magazines, we get on the phone and talk to somebody who was there, we read the comments about the hunt on the message boards, we try to get the full HGA results so we can see what the hound did that won the hunt. You can't know much about a hound by just seeing that CH on the papers.
A responsible breeder should be accountable for some amount of research when making decisions about hounds. Different places do things a little differently. Sometimes we get odd HGA results and the CH isn't the one the majority of hunters at the hunt would pick for the winner. I don't think it is unreasonable to think future breeders will look back at the records to find out about the CHs of the hounds in their pedigrees.

Consider the 2005 Heart of Dixie.
Steele's Big Bad Bob wins S&D by a healthy margin.
Bob wins the Hunting class also by a wide margin.
Of course He also wins the Endurance class.
He places 7th in Trailing.
Bob is the superstar of the hunt, right? He is the one you would want to see in your pedigree. Every hunter there would pick him as the best hound. But, he didn't win the hunt and he didn't get the CH. Some other hound has it and if you didn't do the research you might brag on that hound in your pedigree that has the HOD(f)CH.
The moral of the story is you can't blindly depend on that CH on the papers. You have to dig a little and when you dig you will find all the info you need about the particular rules that the hunt was run under.