I witnessed 1st hand today what I been hearing about dogs with no training collar on them and hearing another dog being toned and stop and load.

I got gambler gyp not long ago, I left her at Lonnies to run and get tough before the masters, she was little long on hours so Lonnie broke her, and since then she has been a breeze to catch (almost to easy) since with no training collar on her. I run old astro 220 with dc30's and I have never shocked her probably run her 10 times....today I was running with crowd and they must wanted to catch after 4hrs we were at the cross roads watching the dogs cross when dog came out looking for ride with his collar beeping - my gyp was right behind his dog, the man shocking was way down the road and couldn't see his dog. Anyway my gyp come to my feet, peeing scared to death, i leashed her and tried to take her down the road and recast, she would have none of it, she was done - only place she wanted to go was box....

Now what I like about the new rule and I wish it would take affect before 2015 because I assure you I will use it at the east coast masters going forward as long as it is in the rule book......no using garmins during the 5 hrs of the hunt......

It isn't fair for a hunter or the dog to get scratched/eliminated at hunt because someone is toning there dog, I fully support this rule and I for sure will not be breaking my new batch pups to toning or shocking so when I take them to a hunt I know for sure hunters can tone all they want and they wont know what it is......I like to be able to catch my dog quickly but not at the expense of messing a good one up, good ones hard to come by.....

2 cents - be good

Lenny

Do away with Garmin that have tone/shocking capability. I seen multiple times were hunters during a hunt will watch there system and toning/shocking there dogs when see there dogs at bays during a hunt, tone/shock there dog when it shows up at the gate wanting to quite, and also toning/shocking there dogs when there system shows there dog has stopped or quitting and they use it to force there dog to keep going. I feel they should just not use them at all inside the wire, just tracking collar or shock only collar. Being able to see what your dog is doing during a hunt and then using it as an advantage is wrong. I understand somewhat of the catching them up quick. Some people are honest with it but some ain't because I'm seen it happen. Just my two cents but when a hunt is going on we have judges and they got a job to do and having the capability in your hand to get advantages on others is not right. Cast the dog, be honest, let the judges judge them, then let the scores prove what that dog done during the hunt. What y'all think

How you gona stop a crook from cheating? I hope there is not as much cheating going on as people try to believe. I believe 95% of hunters are honest.

I don't care either way, I feel like if you want shock your dog when you can't see it or what it is doing, by all means go ahead. I shock broke several dogs on the outside and I never had one pick up the pace and hunt harder from being shocked. The whole point in shocking breaking a dog is to get the to quit a race and get in the truck. My biggest complaint with shock broke dogs is flying through the gate and laying on the horns, it makes a spooky dog go into a whole nother dimension of crazy. And the folks that shock dogs when they see them on the road on the map! That crap shocks the person walking the dog!! You may not like me but I just helped you catch the dog, don't shock me! I would be curious to know how many dogs won a hunt that had to be tickled during hunting?

I know i dont shock my dogs at a hunt period. All that work should have been done prior to a hunt but to each his own. I cant imagine shocking a dog to get them off a bay etc. Most dogs i have seen after getting stimulated quit, they dont just move on down the rd. Maybe some of these guys just have really smart dogs. Last thought, garmins arent the issue the owners are, as usual. Punish all the good hunters over 3 morons, yeah makes sense.

well said.

What is the rule that starts in 2015. I am thinking of buying an alpha but I wanna make sure we will still be able to use them

Ray, I just purchased an alpha and love it. I've had a Tri tronics for a while. It is a great tool to help catch a hard headed dog, but you have to be careful in how you use it. I'd recommend buying one even if they outlaw hem as you can still train a hound with it. I wouldn't dare shock or tone a hound I've had them on during a hunt as it will send to find me or the truck.. Do they give you an advantage for field trialing? Absolutely!!! Wish I had bought mine long ago. However the advantage gained isn't shocking them at a hunt, it's what you teach them before you ever get there.

Why have they waited till every body has spent
$1400 are more on alphas. If I shock my dog he is
Coming to truck, believe that tone do same
Thing. There has been shocking collars
Since the 1985 I bought the three dog
Beagler great break off deer, and catch.

I dont have the exact verbage, but I believe the rule starting in 2015 at the top 6 Masters Corporation hunts, and if any other master affiliates what to use the rule they can just need to advertise it in ads.

You will not be able to use the garmins during the 5 hrs of the hunt, it must be turned off, when the hunt is over turn on your garmin and let it sync up and go catch your dogs.

if you are seen using it you will be brought to the master of hounds, hunt president and Ronnie Mcmillilen - they will discuss

outcome the hunter and his hounds eliminated from the hunt and sent home

There is little more at end but I cant remember it like probation for future hunts....etc

........

I agree integrety and honesty is what it is all about, but some just cant keep finger off the tone/shock button ---

I think we just need to enforce the rule and when some disregard it send them, home, and dont let them come back after a few head sent home the rest will learn and quit with it.....

and another opinion if you cant catch your dog with out electricity, he aint ready for field trial, train them before the hunt, at the hunt let them perform....If I was incharge which a ton are glad I am not, no shocking,toning devices would be allowed at field trials especially the best and biggest hunts ---If I catch someone doing it at the east coast masters doing it during the hunt they wount ever come back I assure you that!!!

Be good
Lenny

Lenny, I will be posting the new rules within a day or two.

This goes into effect with the 2014 Wolfhound Classic/Derby Classic in May.

It is for ALL 6 of the Major Masters Hunts.
Breeders' Cup, Masters, Wolfhound Classic, Southern Star, Top Gun and
World Cup. (it is not required for Masters Affiliated Hunts, but Highly recommended) If a Hunt uses this rule they need to advertise so.

thank you Brenda - I will be putting it in my ad for east coast masters.

Whitey/Brenda - I am wanting one of them white July;s you and whitey got, pick me out a good one and bring it next time we hook up.....
PS - no brindles, bwt spotteds....i will take a w/l spotted..lol be good

See yall later

Lenny

Lenny, I can't understand why anybody would want to shock or tone their dog during the hunt. Some may do it, but that is ignorant in my book.

David you are right, but it is being done, the Nat put in a rule and at the masters the directors put in rule also.....getting report from judges hearing the toning, seeing dogs jump on there ranger or 4wheeler.......

I cant understand it, but it isn't good for field trialing.....no interfering with hounds....

Be good David!!!

Lenny

So what your saying is the hunters can still put the collars on there hounds but cannot use the alpha unit during the hunt is all. I don't see the issue with that or the honest man won't anyways.

Shane - correct

Its sounds like gun laws or P.E.D. rules. The criminal wount follow a rule. Garmins are great. Glad to own mine. Wish I had 5 more.

Sounds like they have bumped their head. I know the nationals have made the rule that if any owner is caught shocking or toning their dogs it will be scratched. That's the way it should be. Why take the joy away from hunter watching and seeing where their hounds are.

i agree chris, go keep making rules so it wont b anybody left at hunts . how do u turn a collar on while the dog is running to get him up ?

I hope it's not as crooked at these big hunts as sounds like.Some of you make it sound bad. I am a poor boy and dont have anything but a name plate collar.I am ready to retire and take my gran boys to some hunts but I dont know these days. I barely understand what a garmin is.But too much cheating at the big hunts. Count my dogs out.

If u do away with one u got two do away with them all I got one I don't need it catch my dogs up if probley used u can leave system at home and be catches up in many ways just do the same thing ever time u use I'll make it simple to u ban tracking collars totally that's the only fair way

Heath Davis told me one time at k & l at puppy hunt they were bad for our spot I have 2 agree in some ways people get there dogs catched up and didn't help other people catch up I see he was true on one side of it but at other side a edge is a edge

What about other shocking systems and collars?Garmins are not the only one that will shock or tone. If you really want to police this impound all hand helds at the event with the hunters name on it at the start of the days hunt and return it at the end of the hunt when it's time to catch your hounds. Then if anyone is caught with any hand held device during the hunt you scratch their hounds. This will eliminate any problem communicating with collars later and maybe help stop this problem. Just my opinion and yes I know everybody has one.

Garmins are not the bad thing it's the people. People do use them as a advantage to gain on others. People watch that screen on that Garmin like teenagers texting these days. People do tone/shock off bays when that Garmin says exactly what the dogs doing and were he is at. Like I said earlier I have been to a 3 day and saw a dog come up to the front and all of sudden I heard the tone and the dog went on away from there so he wouldn't be scratched. I have seen what I seen and yes it is not right when PEOPLE use these systems like this to a advantage. Tracking collars is fine but really your inside wire, train your dogs right, let em run and be judged. Let the scores show you what he is doing not a Garmin pin pointing his every move.

Then the hunt is liable for $20000 in hand helds. I wount put mine in a hold box.This is hype anyway. You cant prove 100% a fellow hunter used one during hunt.And how you gona send a dog home if you dont know 100%?What if it's high scoring dog last day.It be a can of worms. Never happen.

There was a post on here just the other day about alpha collars randomly shocking for no reason. How could you hold a hunter accountable for faulty equipment?

Lenny if your for this why not make it where all your hunters turn in their all their boxes after cast. As far as shocking dogs me personally I have only had one that would not lay down where I shocked them or if they where in the woods they would come and stand in the road.
Chase also makes a great point . I know this has happened to a few hunters.

Food for thought. The last field trial I judged a dog, with an alpha collar, quit by a judge and would not leave. The owner of the dog was asleep in his camper. Someone else must have toned a dog close by. It could have been an accident, we don't know, but it got a hound scratched that may have placed or even won the hunt. I am glad to see the rule just because this may not happen again. We are looking for the best hound at field trials.

Why not take the 2 shocking pens out the collar before you come to a hunt and that should take care of the problem. Don't take any time at all to take them out.

Who's dog quit? I heard one those good running coyotes had a hand held.LOL

What is the rule you cant use any kind of shocking collars

I don't guess I understand... Any and everyone can buy these systems. Obviously they are expensive, but if u feel that you are at a disadvantage... Go buy one. Don't take them away because people have spent all this money, its sole of you of anyone fell you r bring cheated. Get u one, theysell them everyday.

Read original post before you post. Your kind off base on the discussion.

Why would a man be toneing his dog during the hunt. It would be after when he is ready to catch. Right?

Worm I can undertand that . But if you wany hunters to not have their system on for this fact what will be next. Telling judges they have to wisper at a bay due to some dogs being broke to where they will quit when yelled at. Or tell a kid they can play with thier whistle bc dogs may quit. Or make all hunter take their fuse for their horn out bc the may hit their horn by mistake.

I DONT THINK THERE IS THE AMOUNT OF CHEATING GOING ON THAT SOME MIGHT THINK....SOME PROBABLY.....BUT IF YOU HAVE TO CHEAT TO WIN WHAT HAVE YOU WON ?????? AND IF YOU DO CHEAT AND YOU DO IT ENOUGH YOU WILL GET CAUGHT THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY THE PRICE......NOW IS IT WORTH IT ?????? TO ME NO......IF I AM JUDGING IN THE FIELD AND I SEE A HOUND GET SHOCKED THE RULES SAY YOU CANNOT HANDLE YOUR HOUND DURING THE HUNT WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE MASTER OF HOUNDS......SO IF YOU SHOCK OR TONE YOUR HOUND DURING THE 5 HOURS OF THE HUNT AND YOU GET CAUGHT THE HOUND JUST GOT WITHDRAWN OR WILL BE SCRATCHED BECAUSE YOU JUST HANDLED HIM....NOW IF YOU ARE IN THE TOP 20 GOING INTO THE THIRD DAY ARE YOU WILLING TO TAKE THAT CHANCE???

I am a small timer in this sport,I know way less than anybody on here but iv always been told to kill a snake you cut off the head, don't start at the tail.Yes I own a Alpha,its the best investment iv ever made far as hunting goes.iv never toned or shocked my dog during a hunt,i was thnking of buying a Polaris to help get up my dogs or should I save that money too,will they b next.Oh wait no they wont cause all the big names use those to their advantage at hunts.My 2 cents is address the problem head on if there is one,if people r using them in an inappropriate way make the rule to deal with them not where it affects the people who r being honest.Put stiff fines or penalty on the ones who are caught doing it.I saw an earlier post about getting more people to hunts,this will not get me there,i will not attend a hunt where I can not use my tracking device,I do watch my screen to c where they r at,what speeds they are averaging etc. to pass the time.Now I know no one cares if I come or not probly no one would know if I did but this rule gets under my skin,i do not appreciate being labeled if u own an Alpha ur gona cheat.Every hunter uses something different to their own advantage to compete.Lord knows I need all the help I can get.Just my opinion in know it wont matter much but there it is, Bash away!!

Lenny get rid of the gyp! Doesn't sound like she is worth a crap an your a poor loser an want everyone one to suffer.

I bet if someone gave you a Alpha you would love it.

Quit hating on tracking systems, if you think they give hunters an advantage, GO BUY ONE!

I heard David H. Tell a group of hunters at a trial onetime years ago that he went to a trial in one of the eastern states with his first set of tracking collars. He said no one else over there had them at the time and the master of hounds wouldn't let him use them. He said they thought it was an unfair advantage over the other hunters. I'm sure he would verify this if you asked him. Go figure.

I want to respond to the thought there is a massive amount of cheating at these big hunts. I am at most of these hunts and will say there is no cheating even worth thinking about. If there is, leaders. please show the facts .But to say in near 50 years of this I have never heard of a wrong doing would be silly. Things and rules made in the last few years have painted a picture to the younger crew that hunters as well as judges are a bunch of thugs.Why not trust your judges in a judges room? There are some of the finest upstanding people in this sport. Let's stop treating each other as the guilty because of a tiny amount of cheating.One man's opinion.

I don't get to trial as much as I would like due to work, with that said. I don't have a problem with the equipment but I will say it has cut down on sportsmanship. I was at a hunt recently and watched hunter after hunter go past other hunters hounds staring at their Garmin screen, to me that exhibits total selfishness and poor sportsmanship. If your not careful they will run over you watching their screen.
If they are using the equipment outside of the accepted use the individual should be dealt with not the equipment. It matters not the endeavor when the sole purpose becomes self the endeavor will eventually suffer.

Jimmy no name, I was pleasure running and saw this after hearing bout it from other hunters, 1st time I saw it.

The rule is in by the directors, and if u don't like rule don't go, the show will go on.

Good topic lots opinions, some off topic.

There is no advantage or disadvantages, all hunters can use shock to catch dogs when hunt is over just not during the 5 hrs of competition.

Lenny

I don't think Garmins are to blame for poor sportsmanship,I try to catch as many dogs at a hunt as i can at a hunt,thats a matter of character. But i have seen it happen many times where people wont catch other dogs but their own.Some will do that wether they have a garmin or not.

Agin a rule is made for the few at the expense of the many.We the honest shall conform. Will the outlaw?

Is the rule to abolish them altogether or just to turn the hand held off during the hunt?

Turn off during hunt only

dnt look like they have finnished writin rule yet. all ths chatter and no body even read rule. L.C. said turn off for 5 hours. then go at it. if thats official dnt seem over bearin to me. but how can you stop someone from sitting in truk watchin a screen? it just makes him a rule breaker lookin at a screen while P.E.D. go on unchecked.

Chris, all I'm saying, is it's not right for your dog or anyone else,s dog to get scratched because it heard a tone on from another collar. I personally don't care if everyone uses the collars. I just don't think it's fair for the hunters that have their hounds broke to the collars.

Only an idiot would shock there hound during a hunt, so I say turn them off , and visit with your friends and have a good time !! Cell phones have won more pair pots , and calcuttas, than Garmans, have ever thought about! I say cut them off , !! I'll see you guys at a hunt soon let's visit , and watch the hounds, no cells , beep beep , or garmans!!

It will be sad to watch this get proved and a hound scratched out because of a tone heard on a crossing with dogs barking. I gues every dog near the sound of tone should be scratched because nobody gona know the right dog. Only fair way is no collar on dog at all. And if everybody is so dishonest it may be time just stop having field trials.I never knew every other hunter was such a bad seed and untrustworthy. But the proof must be there to go to all these extremes with judges scores posted to public and now this.Sounds like trials have sunk to an all time low.

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic. Improved technology has given us a way to protect our hounds on the outside and protect the game inside the wire and instead of embracing it we make rules against it. Meanwhile we will not entertain any notion of regulation with regard to use of performance enhancing substances. A move that would save the lives of game in the pens and give us a better chance of preserving the sport.